WEC has the right ruleset to help with balance

[AR3-GP]

Toyota called their close Le Mans loss "political" in reference to BoP, fwiw.

Free world and everything. I might have done the same but...

Facts are:

- both Ferraris finished the race, already hard to do especially first year. Toyota should know better than anyone given 2016.
- 13kg difference aren't why they were half a sec behind per lap most of the race, why they made steategy errors or got warned about track limits, and why they couldn't turn on the tires except in the morning.

Only bop that mattered recently was the 296 between daytona and nurburgring. Most of the time in wec it's just small changes to bring the pack closer without really shacking it up.

The 13kg was worth half a second at Le Mans actually...Ferrari was even faster than that, which is why it didn't make a difference. I watched qualifying and those Ferrari had 3.21s in them. Another timezone to the rest. Both drivers were hampered by traffic. Fuoco's pole lap he got absolutely hosed in Indianapolis and Arnage.

So one has to question why they slow Toyota down relative to Ferrari, when Ferrari was already the better car and you could see that Le Mans would suit Ferrari already from Spa. The purpose of the BOP is to balance the cars.

[dialtone]

Toyota called their close Le Mans loss "political" in reference to BoP, fwiw.

Free world and everything. I might have done the same but...

Facts are:

- both Ferraris finished the race, already hard to do especially first year. Toyota should know better than anyone given 2016.
- 13kg difference aren't why they were half a sec behind per lap most of the race, why they made steategy errors or got warned about track limits, and why they couldn't turn on the tires except in the morning.

Only bop that mattered recently was the 296 between daytona and nurburgring. Most of the time in wec it's just small changes to bring the pack closer without really shacking it up.

The 13kg was worth half a second at Le Mans actually...Ferrari was even faster than that, which is why it didn't make a difference. I watched qualifying and those Ferrari had 3.21s in them. Another timezone to the rest. Both drivers were hampered by traffic. Fuoco's pole lap he got absolutely hosed in Indianapolis and Arnage.

So one has to question why they slow Toyota down relative to Ferrari, when Ferrari was already the better car and you could see that Le Mans would suit Ferrari already from Spa.

Ferrari was handily beat every race so far except Lemans and not by a small margin either in shorter races. They were barely ahead of the Cadillacs.

I don't think it's worth 0.5s per lap, these aren't 800kg cars but 1050kg the penalty isn't the same as f1. This website quoting from 'a source' says it's about 0.2 per lap: https://www.motorsportweek.com/2023/06/ ... djustment/

[JordanMugen]

Kobayashi claimed the 36kg was worth 1.6 seconds, so 13kg worth 33% of that. Le Mans is a long lap and the affects of F=ma are quite linear.

[dialtone]

Kobayashi claimed the 36kg was worth 1.6 seconds, so 13kg worth 33% of that. Le Mans is a long lap and the affects of F=ma are quite linear.

Lemans is 85% full throttle, there's very little 'a' going around there, it's not hungary... 36kg aren't worth 1.6 in f1, at 0.3s per 10kg that would be barely above 1s per lap in F1. Kobayashi is trying to justify the loss...

And yes the f1 lap is generally shorter but the cars have more acceleration, are lighter, and the track is mostly FT as already mentioned.

[AR3-GP]

Ferrari was handily beat every race so far except Lemans and not by a small margin either in shorter races. They were barely ahead of the Cadillacs.

Anyone who did more than look at the final classification could realize the pace in the Ferrari. Pole in Sebring. Ferrari put themselves out in traffic with an early pitstop, but there pace in Sebring was competitive. They were the fastest in the dry conditions in Spa. Their tire strategy and struggle in damp conditions cost them the race. They would have won a dry race in Spa.

[AR3-GP]

Kobayashi claimed the 36kg was worth 1.6 seconds, so 13kg worth 33% of that. Le Mans is a long lap and the affects of F=ma are quite linear.

Lemans is 85% full throttle, there's very little 'a' going around there, it's not hungary... 36kg aren't worth 1.6 in f1, at 0.3s per 10kg that would be barely above 1s per lap in F1. Kobayashi is trying to justify the loss...

And yes the f1 lap is generally shorter but the cars have more acceleration, are lighter, and the track is mostly FT as already mentioned.

I've seen it reported by someone who follows Ferrari religiously, that the 13kg was 0.5 second but that Ferrari's margin was bigger than that. Which is my originaly point. The BOP change didn't matter in the end. It was making Toyota weaker when arguably there was no case for it as Ferrari already had it covered.

Also, I'm not sure I understand what your point is. F = ma. When M goes up, A goes down. There are many large brake zones, the porsche curves, and acceleration zones to contend with.

[vorticism]

Only bop that mattered recently was the 296 between daytona and nurburgring. Most of the time in wec it's just small changes to bring the pack closer without really shacking it up.

Not sure what you mean, IMSA run the Daytona race and ADAC run the Nurburgring race. It's not being used in the WEC this season.

[dialtone]

Only bop that mattered recently was the 296 between daytona and nurburgring. Most of the time in wec it's just small changes to bring the pack closer without really shacking it up.

Not sure what you mean, IMSA run the Daytona race and ADAC run the Nurburgring race. It's not being used in the WEC this season.

Not saying they are correlated bop, just that the bop was different between the 2 and the 296 went from disappointing to the first car in 2 decades non german made to win nurburgring.

[Fred]

Toyota called their close Le Mans loss "political" in reference to BoP, fwiw.

Free world and everything. I might have done the same but...

Facts are:

- both Ferraris finished the race, already hard to do especially first year. Toyota should know better than anyone given 2016.
- 13kg difference aren't why they were half a sec behind per lap most of the race, why they made steategy errors or got warned about track limits, and why they couldn't turn on the tires except in the morning.

Only bop that mattered recently was the 296 between daytona and nurburgring. Most of the time in wec it's just small changes to bring the pack closer without really shacking it up.

You’re forgetting the tyre rule changes which also played a large role. A lot of Toyota’s updates to the GR010 have been to switch on the tyres better without the tyre ovens, and they have been the best at it, with Ferrari being the worst. Letting tyre ovens return for Le Mans as well as giving Ferrari a favourable BoP (especially after demonstrating at Spa they were going to be the quickest at Le Mans) is what people have issues with. Ferrari didn’t need the boost, yet got it.

Still, they ran a flawless race and you can’t take that away from them. However, it’s disingenuous to think Toyota lost it by not being good enough. Toyota’s strategy was fine given the bad luck they had (the lead car being crashed out by a Ferrari GTE car, the 2nd car running over a squirrel causing damage). Ferrari benefited a lot from good luck, although credit is definitely deserved for having a flawless first race with the car as luck is only part of the story.

The simple thing is, a lot of the boosts Ferrari got were unfair, and had the lead Toyota not been crashed into, I think most would expect them to have won it. That isn’t something that happens due to a team underperforming. The Ferrari should’ve won more comfortably given the additional pace they were gifted, and would’ve had it not been their first year. Again, in context of it being Ferrari’s first year it is an amazing achievement, but it’d be disingenuous to say Toyota didn’t deserve the win.

[dialtone]

Someone forgetting 2 car resets and had to be craned out of sand to avoid another gte accident. And let's not forget a rock breaking radiator of the faster Ferrari by a mile.

All but flawless.

[AR3-GP]

Toyota called their close Le Mans loss "political" in reference to BoP, fwiw.

Free world and everything. I might have done the same but...

Facts are:

- both Ferraris finished the race, already hard to do especially first year. Toyota should know better than anyone given 2016.
- 13kg difference aren't why they were half a sec behind per lap most of the race, why they made steategy errors or got warned about track limits, and why they couldn't turn on the tires except in the morning.

Only bop that mattered recently was the 296 between daytona and nurburgring. Most of the time in wec it's just small changes to bring the pack closer without really shacking it up.

You’re forgetting the tyre rule changes which also played a large role. A lot of Toyota’s updates to the GR010 have been to switch on the tyres better without the tyre ovens, and they have been the best at it, with Ferrari being the worst. Letting tyre ovens return for Le Mans as well as giving Ferrari a favourable BoP (especially after demonstrating at Spa they were going to be the quickest at Le Mans) is what people have issues with. Ferrari didn’t need the boost, yet got it.

Still, they ran a flawless race and you can’t take that away from them. However, it’s disingenuous to think Toyota lost it by not being good enough. Toyota’s strategy was fine given the bad luck they had (the lead car being crashed out by a Ferrari GTE car, the 2nd car running over a squirrel causing damage). Ferrari benefited a lot from good luck, although credit is definitely deserved for having a flawless first race with the car as luck is only part of the story.

The simple thing is, a lot of the boosts Ferrari got were unfair, and had the lead Toyota not been crashed into, I think most would expect them to have won it. That isn’t something that happens due to a team underperforming. The Ferrari should’ve won more comfortably given the additional pace they were gifted, and would’ve had it not been their first year. Again, in context of it being Ferrari’s first year it is an amazing achievement, but it’d be disingenuous to say Toyota didn’t deserve the win.

Perfectly stated. Ferrari did an excellent job to make the most of what they were given and they won. It would have looked silly if they did not win. Kudos to them. Driving a car for 24 hours is no simple feat. At the same time, Toyota have every right to be annoyed and they were definitely used as a bit of a stalk horse here. Everyone and their mothers knows the significant of a Ferrari victory and the ACO definitely did their part and let Ferrari do the rest. To Ferrari's credit, they "did the rest" which is no simple task either. We've seen teams with best-in-class BOP lose the race before.


Going forward, I would anticipate the Ferrari being nerfed after Monza.

[PlatinumZealot]

There I said it.

I don't think BoP did particularly much at Lemans, but they can run unlimited tests, have budget caps, have strict rulesets for cars and ultimately have BoP, this allows cars to develop and ultimately be leveled by the BoP if they are close enough and willing to catch up. The current state of affairs where teams like Mercedes need to spend a season with sensors in the car to figure it out makes no sense.

People pay hefty prices to go to races and they shouldn't pay to watch tests.

F1 needs to be really worried by next year's WEC field because they have all the parts to create an incredible show and there will be nothing FOM could do then.

I don't believe in BoP applied on race day to the race car. I think the current championship position based wind tunnel restrictions is sufficient because F1 is about making the fastest car, it should never be about artificially equalizing the cars.

I do agree that testing restrictions should be lifted.

[dialtone]

There I said it.

I don't think BoP did particularly much at Lemans, but they can run unlimited tests, have budget caps, have strict rulesets for cars and ultimately have BoP, this allows cars to develop and ultimately be leveled by the BoP if they are close enough and willing to catch up. The current state of affairs where teams like Mercedes need to spend a season with sensors in the car to figure it out makes no sense.

People pay hefty prices to go to races and they shouldn't pay to watch tests.

F1 needs to be really worried by next year's WEC field because they have all the parts to create an incredible show and there will be nothing FOM could do then.

I don't believe in BoP applied on race day to the race car. I think the current championship position based wind tunnel restrictions is sufficient because F1 is about making the fastest car, it should never be about artificially equalizing the cars.

I do agree that testing restrictions should be lifted.

This isn't about building the fastest car. This is about having the right intuition in the first year of regulation and then nobody can catch up because of the constant limitations.

Without budget cap or tests or other ways to develop I would agree that there's no need for BoP but in this current situation it's virtually impossible to catch up to RedBull without a rule change or something really drastic.

[JordanMugen]

This isn't about building the fastest car. This is about having the right intuition in the first year of regulation and then nobody can catch up because of the constant limitations.

Ferrari and Mercedes at the second year of the regulations, simply presented slightly tweaked versions of their original car.

They had a whole year to design a different car, did not so do, then scrambled to redesign their cars at the 6th-7th rounds of the second year into something their second year design wasn't originally intended to be and with the compromises that creates. Surely that is on Ferrari and Mercedes.

Rival teams like Williams, Aston Martin, Alfa Romeo and McLaren had already adapted their cars to a "conventional" down washing, wide sidepod design during the first year of the regulations. They didn't turn up at the start of the second year with an all-new car derived from their 2022 launch car, they had already changed approach much earlier during the 2022 season.

There is nothing to say the Ferrari and Mercedes 2022 launch designs could not have been made to work, but only deciding to change tack 6-7 races into the second season of the regulations is absolutely on those teams, no? If they had always intended to do that, it would have far more logical to do so for the start of the 2023 season at least (if not earlier during the 2022 season like those other teams).

Without budget cap or tests or other ways to develop I would agree that there's no need for BoP but in this current situation it's virtually impossible to catch up to RedBull without a rule change or something really drastic.

It is possible to make huge laptime gains, Aston Martin proved it. If Mercedes or Ferrari had improved as much as Aston Martin from 2022 to 2023, they they would be dominant not Red Bull.

How can there be logic to Mercedes' and Ferrari's decision to launch a revised 2022 car for 2023, only to substantially change the car to a downwashing design for the 6th-7th round? If you were always going to do that it would have been far more logical to launch with such a downwashing car in the first place. It tends to suggest, on the contrary, that these teams underestimated the improvement needed for 2023 (and Red Bull are only 5th-6th most improved, they haven't improved that much) and thought their revised 2022 cars would be adequate.

Meanwhile, Aston Martin set a high target for improvement and met it.

[dialtone]

RBR also presented an iteration over their previous year. Ferrari is still inwash, they haven't moved to downwash look at the flowviz, AMR is as behind as Ferrari and Mercedes after hiring a pretty key figure from RBR, Williams themselves, while commentating RBR floor, said RBR is 1 year ahead of competition, RBR said it will take till japan to see other cars implementing RBR floor ideas in their cars...

Yes we all got it that RBR created a great design. So let's kill the next n years of competition, let's forget when Horner was the one crying for FIA too intervene to stop Mercedes dominance or threatened to leave f1 if Mercedes wasn't going to be reined in.

Smh...