2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[saviour stivala]

. . . At full throttle pedal travel, the throttle valves must be fully open and corresponding level of torque be produced. . . .

Please post the rule that states this.

It doesn't make sense because the demanded torque is obtained by varying:
- the air supply to the cylinder (by throttling, MGUH control and wastegating)
- the ignition timing
- the charge air temperature

That it doesn't make sense to you is no problem to me. ''Throttling'' If you mean throttling the ICE throttle valves regardless of throttle pedal position, my answer is no. ''MGU-H and waste-gating'' While MGU-H does control the turbo pressure but not what gets inside the cylinders. Waste-gate does not control turbo. And neither does ignition timing control what goes inside cylinders. nor does charge air temperature. What goes inside the cylinder is only controlled by the ICE throttle valves.

[gruntguru]

. . . At full throttle pedal travel, the throttle valves must be fully open and corresponding level of torque be produced. . . .

Please post the rule that states this.

It doesn't make sense because the demanded torque is obtained by varying:
- the air supply to the cylinder (by throttling, MGUH control and wastegating)
- the ignition timing
- the charge air temperature

''Throttling'' If you mean throttling the ICE throttle valves regardless of throttle pedal position, my answer is no.

Is this:
1. Your opinion with no evidence to back it up?
2. A rule that you are able to share with us at some later date?
3. A rule that you are not able or not willing to share with us?
.

''MGU-H and waste-gating'' While MGU-H does control the turbo pressure but not what gets inside the cylinders.

So turbo pressure has no effect on cylinder fill??
.

Waste-gate does not control turbo.

In which universe?
.

And neither does ignition timing control what goes inside cylinders.

Correct, but it does affect "torque" (which is what I actually said).
.

nor does charge air temperature.

Charge air temperature affects charge density - affects cylinder mass fill - affects torque.

[saviour stivala]

The gist of the subject (of what I was saying) that ICE throttles and accelerator pedal positions relationship means ''throttle pedal to the floor means ICE throttles fully open - driver goes off-throttle means ICE throttles fully closed''. Some does not agree, does not see it that way. No problem there, we can discuss it further maybe even learn from different opinions from others as that is what a forum is all about. But the usual problem that crops-up is the divergence from the gist of the subject at hand, although most of what is diverted too is relevant to the subject proper, agreeing and disagreeing upon is also the norm. Then comes a time when one is asked to quate relevant rules and regulations. But will these askers be able to quate written rule and regulations confirming what they themselves are pushing forward?". Having said all that, back to the divergences from my expressed opinion that "throttle pedal to the floor means ICE throttles fully open and driver off-throttle means ICE throttles fully closed''. In my opinion what goes inside the cylinders regardless of all other possible 'conditioning' of what is intended to go in said cylinders, is totally controlled by the said cylinder throttle valve. Also my opinion that. While the ICE torque map is shaped on the test bench, and that will be what the engine will deliver, it will deliver in accordance with driver demand through the use by driver of accelerator pedal positioning by said driver "accelerator pedal to the floor max torque delivered through fully opened ICE throttles. and driver off- accelerator pedal zero torque delivered by ICE throttles being closed.

[Farnborough]

The gist of the subject (of what I was saying) that ICE throttles and accelerator pedal positions relationship means ''throttle pedal to the floor means ICE throttles fully open - driver goes off-throttle means ICE throttles fully closed''. Some does not agree, does not see it that way. No problem there, we can discuss it further maybe even learn from different opinions from others as that is what a forum is all about. But the usual problem that crops-up is the divergence from the gist of the subject at hand, although most of what is diverted too is relevant to the subject proper, agreeing and disagreeing upon is also the norm. Then comes a time when one is asked to quate relevant rules and regulations. But will these askers be able to quate written rule and regulations confirming what they themselves are pushing forward?". Having said all that, back to the divergences from my expressed opinion that "throttle pedal to the floor means ICE throttles fully open and driver off-throttle means ICE throttles fully closed''. In my opinion what goes inside the cylinders regardless of all other possible 'conditioning' of what is intended to go in said cylinders, is totally controlled by the said cylinder throttle valve. Also my opinion that. While the ICE torque map is shaped on the test bench, and that will be what the engine will deliver, it will deliver in accordance with driver demand through the use by driver of accelerator pedal positioning by said driver "accelerator pedal to the floor max torque delivered through fully opened ICE throttles. and driver off- accelerator pedal zero torque delivered by ICE throttles being closed.

The very curt answer to that I believe is no, that's not what happens.

Extreme familiarisation with the written rules is certainly needed though, that's to interpret fully.

In very simple terms, the throttle is little more than a variable resistance potentiometer report to engine ecu. Probably digital form rather than analogue voltage.

There's many instances when ecu will be moving throttle restriction according to mapping. These all dictated by torque map, strat mode (think lift and coast etc) along with many other parameters.

These could be some of them....regen braking into store... the throttle restriction could be wide open as you don't need or want ice braking effect to run maximum kinetic through crankshaft (the less restriction the better efficiency) to store in shortest time frame/maximum energy. Likely conditional on fuel input than physical throttle restriction to give minimal torque in response to driver demand.

Down shift blip, anti stall, upshift torque reduction a few more when the throttle is either closed or open by driver command but with ecu modulating rpm shift to achieve these control conditions that are used.

[Hoffman900]

The gist of the subject (of what I was saying) that ICE throttles and accelerator pedal positions relationship means ''throttle pedal to the floor means ICE throttles fully open - driver goes off-throttle means ICE throttles fully closed''. Some does not agree, does not see it that way. No problem there, we can discuss it further maybe even learn from different opinions from others as that is what a forum is all about. But the usual problem that crops-up is the divergence from the gist of the subject at hand, although most of what is diverted too is relevant to the subject proper, agreeing and disagreeing upon is also the norm. Then comes a time when one is asked to quate relevant rules and regulations. But will these askers be able to quate written rule and regulations confirming what they themselves are pushing forward?". Having said all that, back to the divergences from my expressed opinion that "throttle pedal to the floor means ICE throttles fully open and driver off-throttle means ICE throttles fully closed''. In my opinion what goes inside the cylinders regardless of all other possible 'conditioning' of what is intended to go in said cylinders, is totally controlled by the said cylinder throttle valve. Also my opinion that. While the ICE torque map is shaped on the test bench, and that will be what the engine will deliver, it will deliver in accordance with driver demand through the use by driver of accelerator pedal positioning by said driver "accelerator pedal to the floor max torque delivered through fully opened ICE throttles. and driver off- accelerator pedal zero torque delivered by ICE throttles being closed.

The very curt answer to that I believe is no, that's not what happens.

Extreme familiarisation with the written rules is certainly needed though, that's to interpret fully.

In very simple terms, the throttle is little more than a variable resistance potentiometer report to engine ecu. Probably digital form rather than analogue voltage.

There's many instances when ecu will be moving throttle restriction according to mapping. These all dictated by torque map, strat mode (think lift and coast etc) along with many other parameters.

These could be some of them....regen braking into store... the throttle restriction could be wide open as you don't need or want ice braking effect to run maximum kinetic through crankshaft (the less restriction the better efficiency) to store in shortest time frame/maximum energy. Likely conditional on fuel input than physical throttle restriction to give minimal torque in response to driver demand.

Down shift blip, anti stall, upshift torque reduction a few more when the throttle is either closed or open by driver command but with ecu modulating rpm shift to achieve these control conditions that are used.

I agree with this as well. Even the Superbike, Moto2, and Superstock tuners see it all this way, and those are production bikes, and obviously with no hybrid system considerations.

If you mapped throttle opening vs the throttle input on any production and racing Sportbike, a production car (to manage pumping losses), Formula 1, Indy Car, etc. and anything else with throttle by wire you’ll see a disconnect.

The electronics / tuner for the factory Yamaha Superbike team here in the States calls the throttle a “torque controller”. The rider tells the ECU what he / she wants, but it’s up to the ECU which is programmed and is reading off other sensors real time on how to get there.

[Tommy Cookers]

... While the ICE torque map is shaped on the test bench, and that will be what the engine will deliver ....

except for rules existing only in people's imaginations ....
there is no ICE torque map
there's no rules regarding ICE torque
there is no in-car measurement of ICE torque

the FIA's actual rules are for PU output torque ie how that torque can change - accelerator-fixed and accelerator-varied
those rules compel in-car measurement of PU torque and in-car measurement of half-axle torques

[saviour stivala]

''There is no ICE torque map'' I suggest the undertaking of an urgent learning crash course by a five minute visit to (F1 ENGINE MAPS AT F1 FRAMEWORK)

[saviour stivala]

The gist of the subject (of what I was saying) that ICE throttles and accelerator pedal positions relationship means ''throttle pedal to the floor means ICE throttles fully open - driver goes off-throttle means ICE throttles fully closed''. Some does not agree, does not see it that way. No problem there, we can discuss it further maybe even learn from different opinions from others as that is what a forum is all about. But the usual problem that crops-up is the divergence from the gist of the subject at hand, although most of what is diverted too is relevant to the subject proper, agreeing and disagreeing upon is also the norm. Then comes a time when one is asked to quate relevant rules and regulations. But will these askers be able to quate written rule and regulations confirming what they themselves are pushing forward?". Having said all that, back to the divergences from my expressed opinion that "throttle pedal to the floor means ICE throttles fully open and driver off-throttle means ICE throttles fully closed''. In my opinion what goes inside the cylinders regardless of all other possible 'conditioning' of what is intended to go in said cylinders, is totally controlled by the said cylinder throttle valve. Also my opinion that. While the ICE torque map is shaped on the test bench, and that will be what the engine will deliver, it will deliver in accordance with driver demand through the use by driver of accelerator pedal positioning by said driver "accelerator pedal to the floor max torque delivered through fully opened ICE throttles. and driver off- accelerator pedal zero torque delivered by ICE throttles being closed.

The very curt answer to that I believe is no, that's not what happens.

Extreme familiarisation with the written rules is certainly needed though, that's to interpret fully.

In very simple terms, the throttle is little more than a variable resistance potentiometer report to engine ecu. Probably digital form rather than analogue voltage.

There's many instances when ecu will be moving throttle restriction according to mapping. These all dictated by torque map, strat mode (think lift and coast etc) along with many other parameters.

These could be some of them....regen braking into store... the throttle restriction could be wide open as you don't need or want ice braking effect to run maximum kinetic through crankshaft (the less restriction the better efficiency) to store in shortest time frame/maximum energy. Likely conditional on fuel input than physical throttle restriction to give minimal torque in response to driver demand.

Down shift blip, anti stall, upshift torque reduction a few more when the throttle is either closed or open by driver command but with ecu modulating rpm shift to achieve these control conditions that are used.

Rules require the power unit to be run in the same single mode chosen for a race weekend. While car is on the move on track the relationship between accelerator pedal and ICE throttle valve must remain fixed. As to when and why and for what this said fixed relationship is disallowed please refer to my previous posts which will prevents me from having to repeat things over again.

[Hoffman900]

''There is no ICE torque map'' I suggest the undertaking of an urgent learning crash course by a five minute visit to (F1 ENGINE MAPS AT F1 FRAMEWORK)

And? This is how literally every throttle by wire system works. See my post above.

[gruntguru]

''There is no ICE torque map'' I suggest the undertaking of an urgent learning crash course by a five minute visit to (F1 ENGINE MAPS AT F1 FRAMEWORK)

What TC is saying is - the torque demanded by the throttle pedal position, is composed of ICE torque plus MGUK torque. It is entirely possible for a given pedal position and rpm to result in completely different engine throttle positions - depending on what balance of combustion and electric power is being used to deliver the torque demanded.

[saviour stivala]

''There is no ICE torque map'' I suggest the undertaking of an urgent learning crash course by a five minute visit to (F1 ENGINE MAPS AT F1 FRAMEWORK)

What TC is saying is - the torque demanded by the throttle pedal position, is composed of ICE torque plus MGUK torque. It is entirely possible for a given pedal position and rpm to result in completely different engine throttle positions - depending on what balance of combustion and electric power is being used to deliver the torque demanded.

In F1 torque demanded by the driver through accelerator pedal cannot result in sometimes completely different engine throttles positions because ''while car is on the move relationship between accelerator pedal travel and engine throttles positioning must remain fixed'' and as regards electric power/torque supplied to crankshaft through 'K'. When and at which point around a lap the team decides upon for a particular track will be locked for the whole race weekend as only one single mode is permitted. That said chosen electric deploy is added at certain points around a lap to the crankshaft and the driver torque demanded is that which the crankshaft can produce at any given time around a lap.

[saviour stivala]

The gist of the subject (of what I was saying) that ICE throttles and accelerator pedal positions relationship means ''throttle pedal to the floor means ICE throttles fully open - driver goes off-throttle means ICE throttles fully closed''. Some does not agree, does not see it that way. No problem there, we can discuss it further maybe even learn from different opinions from others as that is what a forum is all about. But the usual problem that crops-up is the divergence from the gist of the subject at hand, although most of what is diverted too is relevant to the subject proper, agreeing and disagreeing upon is also the norm. Then comes a time when one is asked to quate relevant rules and regulations. But will these askers be able to quate written rule and regulations confirming what they themselves are pushing forward?". Having said all that, back to the divergences from my expressed opinion that "throttle pedal to the floor means ICE throttles fully open and driver off-throttle means ICE throttles fully closed''. In my opinion what goes inside the cylinders regardless of all other possible 'conditioning' of what is intended to go in said cylinders, is totally controlled by the said cylinder throttle valve. Also my opinion that. While the ICE torque map is shaped on the test bench, and that will be what the engine will deliver, it will deliver in accordance with driver demand through the use by driver of accelerator pedal positioning by said driver "accelerator pedal to the floor max torque delivered through fully opened ICE throttles. and driver off- accelerator pedal zero torque delivered by ICE throttles being closed.

The very curt answer to that I believe is no, that's not what happens.

Extreme familiarisation with the written rules is certainly needed though, that's to interpret fully.

In very simple terms, the throttle is little more than a variable resistance potentiometer report to engine ecu. Probably digital form rather than analogue voltage.

There's many instances when ecu will be moving throttle restriction according to mapping. These all dictated by torque map, strat mode (think lift and coast etc) along with many other parameters.

These could be some of them....regen braking into store... the throttle restriction could be wide open as you don't need or want ice braking effect to run maximum kinetic through crankshaft (the less restriction the better efficiency) to store in shortest time frame/maximum energy. Likely conditional on fuel input than physical throttle restriction to give minimal torque in response to driver demand.

Down shift blip, anti stall, upshift torque reduction a few more when the throttle is either closed or open by driver command but with ecu modulating rpm shift to achieve these control conditions that are used.

I agree with this as well. Even the Superbike, Moto2, and Superstock tuners see it all this way, and those are production bikes, and obviously with no hybrid system considerations.

If you mapped throttle opening vs the throttle input on any production and racing Sportbike, a production car (to manage pumping losses), Formula 1, Indy Car, etc. and anything else with throttle by wire you’ll see a disconnect.

The electronics / tuner for the factory Yamaha Superbike team here in the States calls the throttle a “torque controller”. The rider tells the ECU what he / she wants, but it’s up to the ECU which is programmed and is reading off other sensors real time on how to get there.

I take what you say about the Yamaha superbike tuners as being the facts. But all that falls into the trap of comparing something different to the argument at hand. In short that means that there exists no limitational rules/regulations requesting that while the Yamaha superbike is on the move the relationship between accelerator twister and the throttle valves must remain fixed.

[Dr. Acula]

''There is no ICE torque map'' I suggest the undertaking of an urgent learning crash course by a five minute visit to (F1 ENGINE MAPS AT F1 FRAMEWORK)

What TC is saying is - the torque demanded by the throttle pedal position, is composed of ICE torque plus MGUK torque. It is entirely possible for a given pedal position and rpm to result in completely different engine throttle positions - depending on what balance of combustion and electric power is being used to deliver the torque demanded.

In F1 torque demanded by the driver through accelerator pedal cannot result in sometimes completely different engine throttles positions because ''while car is on the move relationship between accelerator pedal travel and engine throttles positioning must remain fixed'' and as regards electric power/torque supplied to crankshaft through 'K'. When and at which point around a lap the team decides upon for a particular track will be locked for the whole race weekend as only one single mode is permitted. That said chosen electric deploy is added at certain points around a lap to the crankshaft and the driver torque demanded is that which the crankshaft can produce at any given time around a lap.

Saviour, once again you have a very narrow minded intepretation of the rules. The rules don't even mention the engine throttles when it comes to torque demand.

5.6 Power unit torque demand

5.6.1 The only means by which the driver may control acceleration torque to the driven wheels is
via a single foot (accelerator) pedal mounted inside the survival cell.

5.6.2 Designs which allow specific points along the accelerator pedal travel range to be identified
by the driver or assist him to hold a position are not permitted.

5.6.3 At any given engine speed the driver torque demand map must be monotonically increasing
for an increase in accelerator pedal position.

5.6.4 At any given accelerator pedal position and above 4,000rpm, the driver torque demand map
must not have a gradient of less than – (minus) 0.045Nm/rpm.

[saviour stivala]

What TC is saying is - the torque demanded by the throttle pedal position, is composed of ICE torque plus MGUK torque. It is entirely possible for a given pedal position and rpm to result in completely different engine throttle positions - depending on what balance of combustion and electric power is being used to deliver the torque demanded.

In F1 torque demanded by the driver through accelerator pedal cannot result in sometimes completely different engine throttles positions because ''while car is on the move relationship between accelerator pedal travel and engine throttles positioning must remain fixed'' and as regards electric power/torque supplied to crankshaft through 'K'. When and at which point around a lap the team decides upon for a particular track will be locked for the whole race weekend as only one single mode is permitted. That said chosen electric deploy is added at certain points around a lap to the crankshaft and the driver torque demanded is that which the crankshaft can produce at any given time around a lap.

Saviour, once again you have a very narrow minded intepretation of the rules. The rules don't even mention the engine throttles when it comes to torque demand.

5.6 Power unit torque demand

5.6.1 The only means by which the driver may control acceleration torque to the driven wheels is
via a single foot (accelerator) pedal mounted inside the survival cell.

5.6.2 Designs which allow specific points along the accelerator pedal travel range to be identified
by the driver or assist him to hold a position are not permitted.

5.6.3 At any given engine speed the driver torque demand map must be monotonically increasing
for an increase in accelerator pedal position.

5.6.4 At any given accelerator pedal position and above 4,000rpm, the driver torque demand map
must not have a gradient of less than – (minus) 0.045Nm/rpm.

As long as the F1 ICE makes use of cylinder intake throttle valve my narrow mind points me to them, even if not mentioned by the rules, as to what controls the output of what the crankshaft has been meant to produce. "5.6.1 The only means by which the driver may control acceleration torque to the driven wheels is via a single accelerator pedal'' - The torque to the driving wheels the driver may control is the torque (which is the most important thing in car acceleration) produced by the engine crankshaft. what is produced by the engine crankshaft depends on what the cylinders can produce, and what the cylinders can produce will in turn depend on what the cylinders throttle valves allows to enter said cylinders.

[Hoffman900]

In F1 torque demanded by the driver through accelerator pedal cannot result in sometimes completely different engine throttles positions because ''while car is on the move relationship between accelerator pedal travel and engine throttles positioning must remain fixed'' and as regards electric power/torque supplied to crankshaft through 'K'. When and at which point around a lap the team decides upon for a particular track will be locked for the whole race weekend as only one single mode is permitted. That said chosen electric deploy is added at certain points around a lap to the crankshaft and the driver torque demanded is that which the crankshaft can produce at any given time around a lap.

Saviour, once again you have a very narrow minded intepretation of the rules. The rules don't even mention the engine throttles when it comes to torque demand.

5.6 Power unit torque demand

5.6.1 The only means by which the driver may control acceleration torque to the driven wheels is
via a single foot (accelerator) pedal mounted inside the survival cell.

5.6.2 Designs which allow specific points along the accelerator pedal travel range to be identified
by the driver or assist him to hold a position are not permitted.

5.6.3 At any given engine speed the driver torque demand map must be monotonically increasing
for an increase in accelerator pedal position.

5.6.4 At any given accelerator pedal position and above 4,000rpm, the driver torque demand map
must not have a gradient of less than – (minus) 0.045Nm/rpm.

As long as the F1 ICE makes use of cylinder intake throttle valve my narrow mind points me to them, even if not mentioned by the rules, as to what controls the output of what the crankshaft has been meant to produce. "5.6.1 The only means by which the driver may control acceleration torque to the driven wheels is via a single accelerator pedal'' - The torque to the driving wheels the driver may control is the torque (which is the most important thing in car acceleration) produced by the engine crankshaft. what is produced by the engine crankshaft depends on what the cylinders can produce, and what the cylinders can produce will in turn depend on what the cylinders throttle valves allows to enter said cylinders.

There are passenger cars driving around at 10% power with their throttle blades near fully open or fully open to avoid pumping losses.

As I pointed out to you, Superbike tuners have those blades near full open to control engine braking, and the engine braking can be tuned through the whole sequence of a single corner.

The pedal is a torque demand device, how that torque is applies is dictated by the ECU and it’s programming. This holds true for all throttle by wire applications. It really opens up A LOT of tuning abilities.