2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[KeiKo403]

Hypothetical question/scenario here:

What if Mercs 46 strong finance team is actually just that, people. Maybe they’re all part time too. 75% of their time is design and engineering, 25% is finance work. However they can also use that 25% to think over the design in their heads while ‘playing with a spreadsheet’?

Is this clever, exploiting a potential grey area or just straight up cheating? That’s just an open question too.

[f1jcw]

Hypothetical question/scenario here:

What if Mercs 46 strong finance team is actually just that, people. Maybe they’re all part time too. 75% of their time is design and engineering, 25% is finance work. However they can also use that 25% to think over the design in their heads while ‘playing with a spreadsheet’?

Is this clever, exploiting a potential grey area or just straight up cheating? That’s just an open question too.

Aslong as the 75% is accounted for in the budget cap it is no grey area and not cheating.

FIA have yet to restrict people thinking.

[denyall]

Hypothetical question/scenario here:

What if Mercs 46 strong finance team is actually just that, people. Maybe they’re all part time too. 75% of their time is design and engineering, 25% is finance work. However they can also use that 25% to think over the design in their heads while ‘playing with a spreadsheet’?

Is this clever, exploiting a potential grey area or just straight up cheating? That’s just an open question too.

I don't think a scenario like this would pass inspection by the FIA, they would rightly see that these hypothetical engineers would be doing non-car work during that 25% of time and require their FTE be charged to the cost cap. I would call this scenario cheating, as it is obvious the intent would be to gain a free 25% FTE of thinking time.

I also do not see a cost controller/financial analyst role and a aerodynamicist/materials science/mechanical engineer role having the necessary skill/accreditation overlap to make this scenario feasible in the real world.

[Just_a_fan]

Hypothetical question/scenario here:

What if Mercs 46 strong finance team is actually just that, people. Maybe they’re all part time too. 75% of their time is design and engineering, 25% is finance work. However they can also use that 25% to think over the design in their heads while ‘playing with a spreadsheet’?

Is this clever, exploiting a potential grey area or just straight up cheating? That’s just an open question too.

If someone could design one of these cars and make it title-winning just by thinking about it, the teams wouldn't need all of that expensive CFD and wind tunnel kit. So them sitting there staring at the ceiling is no different to the actual design team sitting in their garden at the weekend thinking about things. Thinking isn't controlled - what's controlled is when the ideas go down on paper/CFD/WT.

In extremis, one could extend your question to the teams asking their fans to come up with ideas. That would also be ok as it's not covered by the cost cap.

What wouldn't be ok would be engineers in another organisation/part of the organisation working on designs/CFD/WT tests for what is ostensibly another project, but is actually applicable to the F1 car. This is exactly what the TD is aimed at preventing.

[f1jcw]

Hypothetical question/scenario here:

What if Mercs 46 strong finance team is actually just that, people. Maybe they’re all part time too. 75% of their time is design and engineering, 25% is finance work. However they can also use that 25% to think over the design in their heads while ‘playing with a spreadsheet’?

Is this clever, exploiting a potential grey area or just straight up cheating? That’s just an open question too.

I don't think a scenario like this would pass inspection by the FIA, they would rightly see that these hypothetical engineers would be doing non-car work during that 25% of time and require their FTE be charged to the cost cap. I would call this scenario cheating, as it is obvious the intent would be to gain a free 25% FTE of thinking time.

I also do not see a cost controller/financial analyst role and a aerodynamicist/materials science/mechanical engineer role having the necessary skill/accreditation overlap to make this scenario feasible in the real world.

taking your post to extremes, with peoples thinking subject to a budget cap, then these people never stop working and should be charged under the budget cap for 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

You can not charge people for thinking.

[dans79]

Not entirely sure why people are suggesting being a RB fan has anything to do with ‘making excuses’ when the topic doesn’t even involve them. Poor show

Mainly because its a trend that has been increasing on the internet we have seen since late 2020.

[Tiny73]

.

Not entirely sure why people are suggesting being a RB fan has anything to do with ‘making excuses’ when the topic doesn’t even involve them. Poor show

Once again the (your) inference that Mercs legal and above board practices (as far as we know so far) is somehow nefarious/skirting the rules and subsequently an attempt to make RBs infractions look less heinous.

[denyall]

Hypothetical question/scenario here:

What if Mercs 46 strong finance team is actually just that, people. Maybe they’re all part time too. 75% of their time is design and engineering, 25% is finance work. However they can also use that 25% to think over the design in their heads while ‘playing with a spreadsheet’?

Is this clever, exploiting a potential grey area or just straight up cheating? That’s just an open question too.

I don't think a scenario like this would pass inspection by the FIA, they would rightly see that these hypothetical engineers would be doing non-car work during that 25% of time and require their FTE be charged to the cost cap. I would call this scenario cheating, as it is obvious the intent would be to gain a free 25% FTE of thinking time.

I also do not see a cost controller/financial analyst role and a aerodynamicist/materials science/mechanical engineer role having the necessary skill/accreditation overlap to make this scenario feasible in the real world.

taking your post to extremes, with peoples thinking subject to a budget cap, then these people never stop working and should be charged under the budget cap for 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

You can not charge people for thinking.

I (and most companies) see your salary as paying you for your contributions to the organization however they come. Most contributions come on the clock but sometimes they come in the form of thoughts and musings outside of the office. If you bring those ideas to work and use them the organization benefits and its covered by your salary. People don't get a bonus for things they think about off the clock.

Thus, if we are charging the budget cap the cost of full salary of an engineer there is no need to differentiate between work time and personal time because the value of that engineer is captured in the cap by their salary.

Where this becomes problematic is the "part-time" engineer in that it is impossible to attribute part time for an engineer to the cap and the other part to finance because you cannot control thought.

To keep on topic, the idea that MB has a huge finance team that is really a team of engineers doing some finance work while they think about engineering wouldn't pass the FIA smell test for even a second.

[dans79]

Also, I'm going to assume a lot of the people making semi ridiculous claims here has never worked with or in a finance/accounting department.

Depending on the industry in question they can be tiny, or huge. I've interacted with companies where 10 to 15% of the companies personnel where in the "accounting" department.

A good example would be military contracts, everything is logged, audited and costs are projected Umpteen different ways. F1 teams are basically working in this type of scenario now, as their books are going to be gone through with a fine tooth comb by a third party!

another thing worth considering is company culture, who plays fast and loose, vs who crosses every T and dots every i.

for example, this tells you a lot about the guy running the show at Merc.
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1029978/1 ... y-mercedes

But Wolff was initially unimpressed when he first arrived at Mercedes’ Brackley headquarters a decade ago for a meeting with revered F1 team principal Ross Brawn.

"When I stepped in here for the first time I was waiting to meet Ross Brawn, who I have great admiration for as an engineer,” Wolff told Nasser Hussain as part of a new Sky Sports documentary.

"Whilst I was waiting it didn't feel like a Formula 1 reception. There was an old Daily Mail on the table and an old coffee cup with dry coffee inside. When I went to the meeting I said it didn't feel like a Formula 1 team.

"The answer I got was that the Daily Mail or the old coffee cup doesn't make the car faster, the engineering does.

“I disagreed because it shows whether you have attention to detail, whether you are a perfectionist or you seek excellence, and that starts with cleanliness and an immaculate environment, particularly in Formula 1.”

[Just_a_fan]

Also, I'm going to assume a lot of the people making semi ridiculous claims here has never worked with or in a finance/accounting department.

Depending on the industry in question they can be tiny, or huge. I've interacted with companies where 10 to 15% of the companies personnel where in the "accounting" department.

A good example would be military contracts, everything is logged, audited and costs are projected Umpteen different ways. F1 teams are basically working in this type of scenario now, as their books are going to be gone through with a fine tooth comb by a third party!

another thing worth considering is company culture, who plays fast and loose, vs who crosses every T and dots every i.

for example, this tells you a lot about the guy running the show at Merc.
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1029978/1 ... y-mercedes

But Wolff was initially unimpressed when he first arrived at Mercedes’ Brackley headquarters a decade ago for a meeting with revered F1 team principal Ross Brawn.

"When I stepped in here for the first time I was waiting to meet Ross Brawn, who I have great admiration for as an engineer,” Wolff told Nasser Hussain as part of a new Sky Sports documentary.

"Whilst I was waiting it didn't feel like a Formula 1 reception. There was an old Daily Mail on the table and an old coffee cup with dry coffee inside. When I went to the meeting I said it didn't feel like a Formula 1 team.

"The answer I got was that the Daily Mail or the old coffee cup doesn't make the car faster, the engineering does.

“I disagreed because it shows whether you have attention to detail, whether you are a perfectionist or you seek excellence, and that starts with cleanliness and an immaculate environment, particularly in Formula 1.”

Wolff sounds like Ron Dennis in that quote.

[denyall]

Also, I'm going to assume a lot of the people making semi ridiculous claims here has never worked with or in a finance/accounting department.

Depending on the industry in question they can be tiny, or huge. I've interacted with companies where 10 to 15% of the companies personnel where in the "accounting" department.

A good example would be military contracts, everything is logged, audited and costs are projected Umpteen different ways. F1 teams are basically working in this type of scenario now, as their books are going to be gone through with a fine tooth comb by a third party!

another thing worth considering is company culture, who plays fast and loose, vs who crosses every T and dots every i.

for example, this tells you a lot about the guy running the show at Merc.
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1029978/1 ... y-mercedes

But Wolff was initially unimpressed when he first arrived at Mercedes’ Brackley headquarters a decade ago for a meeting with revered F1 team principal Ross Brawn.

"When I stepped in here for the first time I was waiting to meet Ross Brawn, who I have great admiration for as an engineer,” Wolff told Nasser Hussain as part of a new Sky Sports documentary.

"Whilst I was waiting it didn't feel like a Formula 1 reception. There was an old Daily Mail on the table and an old coffee cup with dry coffee inside. When I went to the meeting I said it didn't feel like a Formula 1 team.

"The answer I got was that the Daily Mail or the old coffee cup doesn't make the car faster, the engineering does.

“I disagreed because it shows whether you have attention to detail, whether you are a perfectionist or you seek excellence, and that starts with cleanliness and an immaculate environment, particularly in Formula 1.”

I didn't read this properly at first! I thought when you were highlighting who runs the show at Merc, you would be referring to Toto's background and success in finance as to the reasoning why they would have a robust cost control department.

That poor coffee cup, I bet the accounting team is so big because there are 10 levels of review before the excel documents go to the boss

[Big Tea]

Also, I'm going to assume a lot of the people making semi ridiculous claims here has never worked with or in a finance/accounting department.

Depending on the industry in question they can be tiny, or huge. I've interacted with companies where 10 to 15% of the companies personnel where in the "accounting" department.

A good example would be military contracts, everything is logged, audited and costs are projected Umpteen different ways. F1 teams are basically working in this type of scenario now, as their books are going to be gone through with a fine tooth comb by a third party!

another thing worth considering is company culture, who plays fast and loose, vs who crosses every T and dots every i.

for example, this tells you a lot about the guy running the show at Merc.
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1029978/1 ... y-mercedes

But Wolff was initially unimpressed when he first arrived at Mercedes’ Brackley headquarters a decade ago for a meeting with revered F1 team principal Ross Brawn.

"When I stepped in here for the first time I was waiting to meet Ross Brawn, who I have great admiration for as an engineer,” Wolff told Nasser Hussain as part of a new Sky Sports documentary.

"Whilst I was waiting it didn't feel like a Formula 1 reception. There was an old Daily Mail on the table and an old coffee cup with dry coffee inside. When I went to the meeting I said it didn't feel like a Formula 1 team.

"The answer I got was that the Daily Mail or the old coffee cup doesn't make the car faster, the engineering does.

“I disagreed because it shows whether you have attention to detail, whether you are a perfectionist or you seek excellence, and that starts with cleanliness and an immaculate environment, particularly in Formula 1.”

What if it had been 'The Sun'? He would not have taken his coat off. You can learn so much from things like this

[ringo]

Changing gears a bit to the car development, I think Mercedes are taking it safe by slowly trying a vanilla side pod with a small indentation and then seeing how this runs before going all in on the waterslide.
It bodes well if this sidepod is only just something to create less noise to test the floor and suspension and then a more refined design will follow.
The team may just have more performance to bring to the car by refinement now that they have found out what works and doesnt work. The waterslides may be the path, but more to what redbull has could also be an option; ie with bulges and underbite intakes given that mercedes also want to reduce drag.
The rear end issue may well be rear suspension design issue, PU deployment strategy, or simply setting up for high downforce and depending on drag reduction strategy/gimmicks kicking in on the straights.

[mendis]

for example, this tells you a lot about the guy running the show at Merc.
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1029978/1 ... y-mercedes

But Wolff was initially unimpressed when he first arrived at Mercedes’ Brackley headquarters a decade ago for a meeting with revered F1 team principal Ross Brawn.

"When I stepped in here for the first time I was waiting to meet Ross Brawn, who I have great admiration for as an engineer,” Wolff told Nasser Hussain as part of a new Sky Sports documentary.

"Whilst I was waiting it didn't feel like a Formula 1 reception. There was an old Daily Mail on the table and an old coffee cup with dry coffee inside. When I went to the meeting I said it didn't feel like a Formula 1 team.

"The answer I got was that the Daily Mail or the old coffee cup doesn't make the car faster, the engineering does.

“I disagreed because it shows whether you have attention to detail, whether you are a perfectionist or you seek excellence, and that starts with cleanliness and an immaculate environment, particularly in Formula 1.”

I wonder why their current set up isn't producing a winning car despite cleanliness and immaculate environment. Toto is just a corporate PR guy who likes marketing more than engineering. Mercedes won those titles because of the work Ross had done, not because the office looked like an arts museum.

[Stu]

Although interesting to read how a dirty cup and dirtier newspaper influence the success of a team, it is far removed from what the team threads should be about.