2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Just_a_fan]

It's like Lewis is finally recovering from the horror of Abu dhabi 2021 and driving like he used to again.

I remember a driver called Ayrton Senna. He got kind of robbed in 89 and he managed to drive as strong as ever in his next season and seasons later all the way to his premature death.

Ayrton deliberately drove in to Prost in 90 to take them both out of the race and thus win the 1990 title. Not sure that's a great example to use.

[AR3-GP]

Does anyone know what the "hydraulic issue" for GR was? Unexpected.

[proteus]

It's like Lewis is finally recovering from the horror of Abu dhabi 2021 and driving like he used to again.

I remember a driver called Ayrton Senna. He got kind of robbed in 89 and he managed to drive as strong as ever in his next season and seasons later all the way to his premature death.

Ayrton deliberately drove in to Prost in 90 to take them both out of the race and thus win the 1990 title. Not sure that's a great example to use.

That was 15+ races later with extra circumstances coming into that equation. He didnt search for himself in those 15+ races...

Another example is Damon Hill. How will you twist this one?

[Hammerfist]

I remember a driver called Ayrton Senna. He got kind of robbed in 89 and he managed to drive as strong as ever in his next season and seasons later all the way to his premature death.

He also had a car that could fight for wins.

I distinctly remember the w13 fight for wins at Zandvoort, mexico, Brazil, Silverstone last season

The w13 was not a championship contender. Sennas car was a championship car. And the w13 was not a realistic contender for the win at any of the venues you mentioned except Brazil only because rbr admittedly fudged their setup that weekend.

[Just_a_fan]

I remember a driver called Ayrton Senna. He got kind of robbed in 89 and he managed to drive as strong as ever in his next season and seasons later all the way to his premature death.

Ayrton deliberately drove in to Prost in 90 to take them both out of the race and thus win the 1990 title. Not sure that's a great example to use.

That was 15+ races later with extra circumstances coming into that equation. He didnt search for himself in those 15+ races...

Another example is Damon Hill. How will you twist this one?

The 1990 McLaren was a title contending car. The W13 wasn't. In fact the first half of the 2022 season, Hamilton was running experiments for the team on track. That is to say - he was helping his team understand the car and the new rules. That's building for the future. Once the team stopped with those experiments, Hamilton's performances improved as he was then having a go at driving the car properly rather than as a test mule.

What about Damon Hill?

[ringo]

You guys really have time to argue blatant untruths. When I saw mention of W13 fighting for wins for many races by organic, I realized it's not worth arguing. No way W13 can compare to the top class Mclaren's Senna drove. W13 was a fatal error. None of the Mclarens were. Senna has never been in Hamilton's position before. In fact no driver has in recent memory went through that kind of championship robbing situation by the FIA.

[DGP123]

You guys really have time to argue blatant untruths. When I saw mention of W13 fighting for wins for many races by organic, I realized it's not worth arguing.

[organic]

How is it a blatant untruth that the w13 was "fighting for wins"?

It was! On pure pace it won Brazil, could've won mexico with the right tyre strategy or a better start, could've won Silverstone or Zandvoort without SC intervention. Unless I'm mistaken and the w13 didn't compete at those 4 weekends or something

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/news/2022 ... ce-debrief

Shovlin saying they're pretty confident they would've been able to catch and pass Carlos on-track without the SC intervention for the race win and that was with lewis starting from a compromised qualifying position

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/news/2022 ... ce-debrief

Without the VSC Max would've had to close a 7-8s gap and pass lewis on track. They don't know if Max would've done it - of not it would've been a race win. And this was once again starting from a compromised qualifying position - lewis could've been on or close to pole without checo's spin

As for Mexico they kept Max within 3s for the entire first stint despite a tyre delta disadvantage and the decision not to try a more aggressive compound at the start like soft or hard, or even commit to a medium-> soft and instead a conservative medium->hard doomed their race. They overestimated the deg/thermal stress on tyres that weekend. But the car was in contention for the win if they'd qualified a tenth faster (or max had qualified a tenth slower) or started slightly better - we all know how hard it is to pass at mexico.

If you wish to call something I've said a blatant untruth and not elaborate, that's your prerogative but you haven't done anything to disprove what I've said

I'm just going by what Mercedes themselves have said

[ringo]

Brazil only. I am not discounting that there were chances that appeared in the races you mentioned. But by no means was Lewis and George ever in a solid position from practice, through to qualy, through to the race where everyone could see this W13 is the car to have this weekend to beat a redbull. The Ferrari could pass for that kind of car.
The car was not a front running car. It was no different than an Ocon running at the front in Hungary to take his first win or a Ricciardo holding off the field in Monza to take that win in a midfeild car after extreme circumstances. Sometimes unpredictable circumstances, changing track temperature, a bad day by the top teams, creates a chance for midfield car to get a whiff of a win and sometimes take it. But for all the races you mentioned, look on the tyre strategy and even poor weekend management by drivers and or pitwall( yes max has off days where he setup up the car poorly and just has issues getting it in the sweet spot, despite his fans thinking he gets 100% out of the car all the time) to see where a midfield car has a chance.
So yes those 4 races there were chances.. but over a 22 race season 4 lucky chances doesn't equal even a 2nd row championship fighting car.

[vorticism]

You guys really have time to argue blatant untruths. When I saw mention of W13 fighting for wins for many races by organic, I realized it's not worth arguing.

Yeah, when you don't have a counterargument its best to stop early.

In fact no driver has in recent memory went through that kind of championship robbing situation by the FIA.

What are engines and what do they do?

[organic]

Brazil only. I am not discounting that there were chances that appeared in the races you mentioned. But by no means was Lewis and George ever in a solid position from practice, through to qualy, through to the race where everyone could see this W13 is the car to have this weekend to beat a redbull. The Ferrari could pass for that kind of car.
The car was not a front running car. It was no different than an Ocon running at the front in Hungary to take his first win or a Ricciardo holding off the field in Monza to take that win in a midfeild car after extreme circumstances. Sometimes unpredictable circumstances, changing track temperature, a bad day by the top teams, creates a chance for midfield car to get a whiff of a win and sometimes take it. But for all the races you mentioned, look on the tyre strategy and even poor weekend management by drivers and or pitwall( yes max has off days where he setup up the car poorly and just has issues getting it in the sweet spot, despite his fans thinking he gets 100% out of the car all the time) to see where a midfield car has a chance.
So yes those 4 races there were chances.. but over a 22 race season 4 lucky chances doesn't equal even a 2nd row championship fighting car.

You disagree with Mercedes themselves over whether they were quick enough to win on merit at a couple of races - that's fine.

Ultimately I guess we just consider a "race-win contending car" to be a different thing. I'll go by the definition of the word 'contending 'rather than a contrived interpretation personally

You wish to call what I say "blatantly untrue" and when asked to back that claim up, it isn't. Instead what becomes clear is your desire to push a narrative and inclination to do so with derision and arrogance as your tool. It's a tale as old as time

[mkay]

Brazil only. I am not discounting that there were chances that appeared in the races you mentioned. But by no means was Lewis and George ever in a solid position from practice, through to qualy, through to the race where everyone could see this W13 is the car to have this weekend to beat a redbull. The Ferrari could pass for that kind of car.
The car was not a front running car. It was no different than an Ocon running at the front in Hungary to take his first win or a Ricciardo holding off the field in Monza to take that win in a midfeild car after extreme circumstances. Sometimes unpredictable circumstances, changing track temperature, a bad day by the top teams, creates a chance for midfield car to get a whiff of a win and sometimes take it. But for all the races you mentioned, look on the tyre strategy and even poor weekend management by drivers and or pitwall( yes max has off days where he setup up the car poorly and just has issues getting it in the sweet spot, despite his fans thinking he gets 100% out of the car all the time) to see where a midfield car has a chance.
So yes those 4 races there were chances.. but over a 22 race season 4 lucky chances doesn't equal even a 2nd row championship fighting car.

You disagree with Mercedes themselves over whether they were quick enough to win on merit at a couple of races - that's fine.

Ultimately I guess we just consider a "race-win contending car" to be a different thing. I'll go by the definition of the word 'contending 'rather than a contrived interpretation personally

You wish to call what I say "blatantly untrue" and when asked to back that claim up, it isn't. Instead what becomes clear is your desire to push a narrative and inclination to do so with derision and arrogance as your tool. It's a tale as old as time

You’re technically correct that it is a race-winning, but in the same way Alpine was in 2021, or McLaren and Racing Point in 2020, heck or Red Bull and Ferrari between 2014-16.

Mercedes wasn’t really in a position to win Silverstone, Zandvoort or Mexico, though, even if you take the most optimistic view and disregard untimely SCs or poor strategy calls.

Hamilton was catching Sainz at Silverstone but it’s doubtful and pure speculation to assume that he would have had the delta and top speed to overtake. Hamilton mightily struggled to overtake Leclerc who was on old hard tyres after the SC.

The W13 had strong pace on specific kinds of tracks (front-limited, with medium/high speed corners and high altitude helped reduce drag differential). Who knows how they would have fared in Spain had Hamilton not needed to pit or had Hamilton started from pole in Hungary (as he was the faster Merc and had a DRS failure in Q3). They were also looking quite racy in Austria.

But that’s about it. To me, the W13 is similar to the RB of 2014-2018ish. Firmly third best car under most circumstances, sometimes able to challenge for wins but sometimes also struggling to make it into Q3.

[ringo]

Agreed.
I think the Mclaren seems to be a quick car with the upgrades. It may be good enough to hamper Hamilton from catching Alonso in the WDC. The silverstone upgrades would have to give them another boost gain back ground on Aston and Mclaren.

[denyall]

Well the Merc is obviously still a work in progress. Looks like the Ferrari has pace with the tweaks they brought and McLaren should have two cars in the mix now as well. I think it'll be a four team fight for best of the rest in Silverstone. Really curious to see if the new floor can deliver.

[ringo]

Not surprised 9f the race results. The car would have never gone well in Austria as is traditionally the case. Awaiting what went wrong with Lewis' brakes. But even without that the Mclaren was quicker all weekend. The penalty would not have made a difference.