Conceptual engine regulations

[johnny comelately]

Creative spin on things there, Zynerji. A turbo assisted pulse jet, I don't think has ever existed (the pulse jet inefficiencies will be pointed out). My take on it would be to replace the combustors on a turbojet with pulse jets. This would be for an aesthetic touch not necessarily a performance gain--again we're in the age of race cars with styling ballast. Although, higher combustion pressures in the combustor might be valuable. It could provide an entertaining sound if tuned properly--most pulsejets I've heard are relatively low Hz. If ganged up in multiples and timed with spark ignition or valve control you could increase the pitch of the pulses to approximate an F1 NA sound. So, one MGUH-turbo-multi-pulsejet (MGUPJ?) driving your axle MGUs.

You need to dump braking MGU energy somehow if you're going to have motor braking, possibly through driving the MGUPJ and porting the MGUPJ compressor outfeed forward for a small reverse thrust. The only cooling you'll need will be for the motors, control electronics, and oil. Relatively small radiators.

Otherwise I'm in support of this as the nemesis EV. The CEV -- combustion electric vehicle.* Mwahaha. All though this is actually the definition of all EVs after the green paint is removed.

I meant turbo jet...

Just imagine this with current F1 turbos, and you will see what I mean.

Its not that quick, didnt even need a helmet

[Zynerji]

That's just thrust. How much would 2 mguh output at that rpm?

[gruntguru]

Its not that quick, didnt even need a helmet

What could possibly go wrong?

[vorticism]

Percentage of a theoretical perfect inlet fill event by a novel gas exchange design.
The best 4 valve engines achieve high 30's%
Actual flow at 10 inches = 246cfm
https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88777 ... eGLgM3efCo

Well when you say novel I guess you really mean it--this being an atypical valve arrangement? What else can you tell us about this?

In development at dyno stage.
I am retired from the project
Air cooled, showing one advantage of methanol.
Top fuel drag bike application.

Single rotary valve for gas exchange.
For cylinder fill it is like opening the garage door, so in the early stages it only needed 22 psi.(supercharger superceded with turbo)
2.3 litre swept. 10.5 static.
500bhp @ 5000 rpm on the dyno for a 10000rpm engine
Methanol with nitro up the sleeve, twin fuel injectors with a normal return to tank system.
The drawback with a rotary valve is it compromises the chamber shape.
The key to rotary valves is the seal design, this one worked and worked well.
Twin flame ignition which needed only 26 degrees advance, greatly reducing what we call pumping losses.
BSFC numbers are sad which relates to the proposed F1 fuel specs

Interesting. If the seals are worked out then you have to wonder why you wouldn't use rotary valves in a racing engine. I think some of those downsides you mentions could be managed. What would say about using them on a high compression application like modern F1 or diesel.

[vorticism]

Creative spin on things there, Zynerji. A turbo assisted pulse jet, I don't think has ever existed (the pulse jet inefficiencies will be pointed out). My take on it would be to replace the combustors on a turbojet with pulse jets. This would be for an aesthetic touch not necessarily a performance gain--again we're in the age of race cars with styling ballast. Although, higher combustion pressures in the combustor might be valuable. It could provide an entertaining sound if tuned properly--most pulsejets I've heard are relatively low Hz. If ganged up in multiples and timed with spark ignition or valve control you could increase the pitch of the pulses to approximate an F1 NA sound. So, one MGUH-turbo-multi-pulsejet (MGUPJ?) driving your axle MGUs.
You need to dump braking MGU energy somehow if you're going to have motor braking, possibly through driving the MGUPJ and porting the MGUPJ compressor outfeed forward for a small reverse thrust. The only cooling you'll need will be for the motors, control electronics, and oil. Relatively small radiators.
Otherwise I'm in support of this as the nemesis EV. The CEV -- combustion electric vehicle.* Mwahaha. All though this is actually the definition of all EVs after the green paint is removed.

Zero brake recovery. All carbon/carbon deceleration.
I meant turbo jet...
Just imagine this with current F1 turbos. Especially with VNT for more control.

No harm done, we've ended up inventing the turbopulsejet in the span of two posts.

[johnny comelately]

Well when you say novel I guess you really mean it--this being an atypical valve arrangement? What else can you tell us about this?

In development at dyno stage.
I am retired from the project
Air cooled, showing one advantage of methanol.
Top fuel drag bike application.

Single rotary valve for gas exchange.
For cylinder fill it is like opening the garage door, so in the early stages it only needed 22 psi.(supercharger superceded with turbo)
2.3 litre swept. 10.5 static.
500bhp @ 5000 rpm on the dyno for a 10000rpm engine
Methanol with nitro up the sleeve, twin fuel injectors with a normal return to tank system.
The drawback with a rotary valve is it compromises the chamber shape.
The key to rotary valves is the seal design, this one worked and worked well.
Twin flame ignition which needed only 26 degrees advance, greatly reducing what we call pumping losses.
BSFC numbers are sad which relates to the proposed F1 fuel specs

Interesting. If the seals are worked out then you have to wonder why you wouldn't use rotary valves in a racing engine. I think some of those downsides you mentions could be managed. What would say about using them on a high compression application like modern F1 or diesel.

Rules
thats why we have this thread

[vorticism]

What is the thought about a non hybrid concept?

If suddenly given the choice the teams would remove the ES, the MGU H and K, keep the turbo ICE almost as is, add anti lag to the system, and take the fuel weight penalty.

[Zynerji]

What is the thought about a non hybrid concept?

If suddenly given the choice the teams would remove the ES, the MGU H and K, keep the turbo ICE almost as is, add anti lag to the system, and take the fuel weight penalty.

Sounds like a winner. More or less RPM than now?

[vorticism]

Probably less. Recall the current engine operating speed range is somewhat artificial. That's why I say, if you're going to curate aesthetics, at least do it well or hire someone with a sense of taste. We could have had f.e. something like the GMA T.50 sound while still doing all of the same combustion science the past eight years. FIA hand wringers: "Oops."

[wuzak]

What is the thought about a non hybrid concept?

If suddenly given the choice the teams would remove the ES, the MGU H and K, keep the turbo ICE almost as is, add anti lag to the system, and take the fuel weight penalty.

The rules will save roughly 30kg of fuel per car per race compared to the current ICE.

Removing the ERS would save 55kg immediately (16kg MGUK, 4kg MGUK gearbox, 35kg ES). There would be extra savings for cooling and cables.

So for 30kg extra fuel (for a 800hp ICE) you could still end up ~60-70kg lighter at maximum weight, and maybe 100kg when the fuel is all burned.

[wuzak]

I've mentioned this before, but I'll do it again.

Single front electric MU-K only. Torque vectoring differential.

Single rear electric MU-K only. Torque vectoring differential.

Single turbo-jet setup with twin turbo, twin MGU-H.

MGU-H's directly power the MU-K's. In a diagonal fashion, the torque vectoring will be controlled with triggers on the wheel that changes the balance of the power distribution (FR+10%<->LR-10%).

Maybe a 1-2 MJ battery for some hysteresis in the charging system (startup, throttle response).

Powered with EU approved, Green CNG in hot-swappable fuel pods for pit change with tyres.

It's loud, it's fast, it's agile, it has thrust!

Oh, and it's ALL under the drivers direct control with minimal electronics.

You would not build a turbojet and then bolt on turbos.

The lighter and, I suspect, more efficient way would be to have a turboshaft engine with free turbine driving the generator.

The power output turbine section could have multiple stages to get the required power.

To gain efficiency some sort of heat recuperation would need to be used. That is, use the exhaust heat to warm the air post compressor but pre-combustor.

Powered with EU approved, Green CNG in hot-swappable fuel pods for pit change with tyres.

A: If the power unit is efficient enough, there would be no need to swap "fuel pods". A single "fuel pod" could be made to last the race.

b: Is there such a thing as "Green CNG"?

[gruntguru]

All that and you end up with a PU that is less efficient than a piston engine (running on any fuel including NG) and has sounds like an air-leak going round the track.

[DenBommer]

I've mentioned this before, but I'll do it again.

Single front electric MU-K only. Torque vectoring differential.

Single rear electric MU-K only. Torque vectoring differential.

Single turbo-jet setup with twin turbo, twin MGU-H.

MGU-H's directly power the MU-K's. In a diagonal fashion, the torque vectoring will be controlled with triggers on the wheel that changes the balance of the power distribution (FR+10%<->LR-10%).

Maybe a 1-2 MJ battery for some hysteresis in the charging system (startup, throttle response).

Powered with EU approved, Green CNG in hot-swappable fuel pods for pit change with tyres.

It's loud, it's fast, it's agile, it has thrust!

Oh, and it's ALL under the drivers direct control with minimal electronics.

And how efficient (in percentage) do you think this setup can be (with and without RDE)?

[vorticism]

I thought the race was good. 2025 cars are going to be 0.1s on convergence.

They should just freeze the aero then, and just switch the engine regs to v10 synth fuels for 2026..

the aero and size of the cars is the main problem with the actual racing in my opinion. v10s will probably never come back, but you'd hope with synth fuels they could dump the hybrid as it's function would be redundant.

2014 proved that the engine criteria could be anything, that they were created and applied arbitrarily as an aesthetic exercise. If that precedent is maintained other aesthetic criterion may arise. Cosworth would not mind being commissioned for their services.

[Apexseal157]

to be fair you make a good point, obviously the prospect of v10s would make most fans drool, but i'd take a hybrid-less v6,v8 or v10, with synth fuel. my f1 fantasy is a rotary engined f1 car alongside an assortment of different layouts (v10s,v8s,v6s,inline 5?), but yh... not exactly realistic