2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[chrisc90]

What's the problem with the Monaco upgrades and the tweaks since then in Barcelona, Canada and Austria. Does the team not understand the setup of the car? Have the upgrades put the team a small step back? Des it move the operating window of the car slightly? It appeared the loose nature of the car that was seen in the race in Austria transferred over into FP1/2 at Silverstone. That seems to have been dialled out so would suggest the setup changes overnight Friday into Saturday worked. Will that have changed much in the race sims that were done on Friday?

A big big day tomorrow for Mercedes. I have a feeling its going to be tough. I have a feeling the Ferrari will clear the McLarens pretty well judging by Dialtones quali analysis on the speed with DRS traces.

[Stu]

Afraid to say it....but what wet races has Hamilton excelled at in the last 2 years compared to everyone else? I haven't really seen one notable wet performance, from memory, from Lewis during this new era of cars.

It seems that this era of car do not allows drivers to make différence in the wet.

Mass, pure & simple.
Commentary today was talking about the amazing change in direction at Copse & Becketts/Maggots, but if you watch on-boards from pre-hybrid era the changes of direction are much harder and the Beckett’s/Maggots complex was mind-blowing.
I’m pretty sure that there were multiple down-changes through the complex today.

[Luscion]

What's the problem with the Monaco upgrades and the tweaks since then in Barcelona, Canada and Austria. Does the team not understand the setup of the car? Have the upgrades put the team a small step back? Des it move the operating window of the car slightly? It appeared the loose nature of the car that was seen in the race in Austria transferred over into FP1/2 at Silverstone. That seems to have been dialled out so would suggest the setup changes overnight Friday into Saturday worked. Will that have changed much in the race sims that were done on Friday?

A big big day tomorrow for Mercedes. I have a feeling its going to be tough. I have a feeling the Ferrari will clear the McLarens pretty well judging by Dialtones quali analysis on the speed with DRS traces.

From what merc said, their monaco upgrades were more of a concept change, a baseline of a car that they could understand and does what the wind tunnel and sims said it would when they put in on track more so than it was a performance upgrade, since they all theyve brought is a new front wing. They still need to address their rear downforce issues, something Lewis has still been complaining even at a more front limited track like silverstone. Merc say they're good are developing the car so lets wait and see, i hope they bring something to the next race.

[r85]

What's the problem with the Monaco upgrades and the tweaks since then in Barcelona, Canada and Austria. Does the team not understand the setup of the car? Have the upgrades put the team a small step back? Des it move the operating window of the car slightly? It appeared the loose nature of the car that was seen in the race in Austria transferred over into FP1/2 at Silverstone. That seems to have been dialled out so would suggest the setup changes overnight Friday into Saturday worked. Will that have changed much in the race sims that were done on Friday?

A big big day tomorrow for Mercedes. I have a feeling its going to be tough. I have a feeling the Ferrari will clear the McLarens pretty well judging by Dialtones quali analysis on the speed with DRS traces.

From what merc said, their monaco upgrades were more of a concept change, a baseline of a car that they could understand and does what the wind tunnel and sims said it would when they put in on track more so than it was a performance upgrade, since they all theyve brought is a new front wing. They still need to address their rear downforce issues, something Lewis has still been complaining even at a more front limited track like silverstone. Merc say they're good are developing the car so lets wait and see, i hope they bring something to the next race.

Yeah, predictable downforce/performance is their first priority and pace upgrades come later

[Hammerfist]

What's the problem with the Monaco upgrades and the tweaks since then in Barcelona, Canada and Austria. Does the team not understand the setup of the car? Have the upgrades put the team a small step back? Des it move the operating window of the car slightly? It appeared the loose nature of the car that was seen in the race in Austria transferred over into FP1/2 at Silverstone. That seems to have been dialled out so would suggest the setup changes overnight Friday into Saturday worked. Will that have changed much in the race sims that were done on Friday?

A big big day tomorrow for Mercedes. I have a feeling its going to be tough. I have a feeling the Ferrari will clear the McLarens pretty well judging by Dialtones quali analysis on the speed with DRS traces.

From what merc said, their monaco upgrades were more of a concept change, a baseline of a car that they could understand and does what the wind tunnel and sims said it would when they put in on track more so than it was a performance upgrade, since they all theyve brought is a new front wing. They still need to address their rear downforce issues, something Lewis has still been complaining even at a more front limited track like silverstone. Merc say they're good are developing the car so lets wait and see, i hope they bring something to the next race.

What's happening to Merc imo is they are slacking in their in year development. A bigger upgrade was promised for Silverstone but they were only able to bring a front wing. Not sure when the rest of the stuff will get to the car, or has it been canceled? Toto very quiet about that all weekend. What's the deal toto? Someone got to hit him up. But yeah it's obvious what's going on is they are losing the development race to Mclaren and Ferrari. And AM is losing too.

[chrisc90]

I cant work out their upgrades and the comments surrounding it....Neither can others. They brought the W13 to Bahrain and quickly decided that it was no good, so the concept change they brought to Monaco was in the planning stages for quite a long time. That means that they should understand the performance of the car and how to set it up on a race weekend. The upgrades weren't a blank canvas or a starting point for future (although they are in a way or a patch between seasons).
They were meant to bring this major upgrade to Imola dont forget. They will have know where to work on future upgrades well before now and there is guaranteed to be things in the pipeline.
Its a tight budget these days in F1, so its worth bearing in mind how much they will have spent to bring a Imola upgrade and the potential for ones in the future.

They need to work on something to address the balance issue of the car. Dont get me wrong, the first part of the season they had a very quick car. but with the likes of Williams and Mclaren bringing some serious pace it must be worrying for Mercedes as to where the performance is going/gone. Silverstone was always a strong track for them so be interesting to see what race pace is like.

it would be interesting to have a timeline of the comments on the car from senior team members, what they said future upgrades would be and what the actual result was further down the line at the GP initially mentioned and where it put them. Would put some perspective on the season for them

[pursue_one's]

Mercedes should also copy Red bulls design.

“Not surprised,” Hamilton said. “If you look at the car it makes sense. I’m really happy for them; they’ve had a bad run for so long. To be back up there is really, really great to see.

“If you put it alongside a Red Bull it’s looks very, very similar down the sides. And it’s working, and that’s great to have them up in the mix, which is what we want to see in this sport.

“It’s not a blow, it’s just a wake up call for us. Others are overtaking us. We need to do more.”

https://racer.com/2023/07/08/mclaren-pa ... -hamilton/

[zibby43]

Mercedes should also copy Red bulls design.

“Not surprised,” Hamilton said. “If you look at the car it makes sense. I’m really happy for them; they’ve had a bad run for so long. To be back up there is really, really great to see.

“If you put it alongside a Red Bull it’s looks very, very similar down the sides. And it’s working, and that’s great to have them up in the mix, which is what we want to see in this sport.

“It’s not a blow, it’s just a wake up call for us. Others are overtaking us. We need to do more.”

https://racer.com/2023/07/08/mclaren-pa ... -hamilton/

The party line being fed to Hamilton by the team earlier in the year was that RB side pod bodywork didn’t matter.

Mercedes can’t create an undercut, and their water slide ramp isn’t as dramatic as other teams who have cloned that design.

It’s no wonder that virtually every team that has been able to do so has made a jump in performance.

[chrisc90]

Not sure im with Lewis on that one. They look very different. Theres only the undercut on the front under the inlets that is similar, the rest is completely different. For a start the McLaren has the curved waterslides and the RB doesnt. The upper engine cover is completely different.

Cant find a comparable photo, but its probably more one for the comparison thread.

[AR3-GP]

Mercedes should also copy Red bulls design.

“Not surprised,” Hamilton said. “If you look at the car it makes sense. I’m really happy for them; they’ve had a bad run for so long. To be back up there is really, really great to see.

“If you put it alongside a Red Bull it’s looks very, very similar down the sides. And it’s working, and that’s great to have them up in the mix, which is what we want to see in this sport.

“It’s not a blow, it’s just a wake up call for us. Others are overtaking us. We need to do more.”

https://racer.com/2023/07/08/mclaren-pa ... -hamilton/

The party line being fed to Hamilton by the team earlier in the year was that RB side pod bodywork didn’t matter.

Mercedes can’t create an undercut, and their water slide ramp isn’t as dramatic as other teams who have cloned that design.

It’s no wonder that virtually every team that has been able to do so has made a jump in performance.

Mclaren, Aston Martin, and Williams have made these leaps on the back of a near 40-50% addition to their WindTunnel hours, while trying to trace the RB. Now imagine Merc trying to come up with their own ideas on half the windtunnel time.

I do wonder if Merc would have been wiser to game the system before June 30th. Beating Aston to P2 before June 30th did not help them. Now it seems like they are pigeonholed.

Look at Mclaren's outlook. They have the P6 windtunnel hours going into the rest of the season for their '24 car. Look at Ferrari. They have the P4 WT hours going into the '24 car.

Merc,Mclaren, Ferrari have similar deficit to RB, yet those former teams have way more WT hours to try and close the gap. It's an unfortunate quirk of the WT regs.

[zibby43]

Mercedes should also copy Red bulls design.



https://racer.com/2023/07/08/mclaren-pa ... -hamilton/

The party line being fed to Hamilton by the team earlier in the year was that RB side pod bodywork didn’t matter.

Mercedes can’t create an undercut, and their water slide ramp isn’t as dramatic as other teams who have cloned that design.

It’s no wonder that virtually every team that has been able to do so has made a jump in performance.

Mclaren, Aston Martin, and Williams have made these leaps on the back of a near 40-50% addition to their WindTunnel hours, while trying to trace the RB. Now imagine Merc trying to come up with their own ideas on half the windtunnel time.

I do wonder if Merc would have been wiser to game the system before June 30th. Beating Aston to P2 before June 30th did not help them. Now it seems like they are pigeonholed.

Look at Mclaren's outlook. They have the P6 windtunnel hours going into the rest of the season for their '24 car. Look at Ferrari. They have the P4 WT hours going into the '24 car.

Merc,Mclaren, Ferrari have similar deficit to RB, yet those former teams have way more WT hours to try and close the gap. It's an unfortunate quirk of the WT regs.

It’s probably due to both restrictions and quality of staff.

[PlatinumZealot]

Dayum. Then onnly Williams left before we are the worst Merc powered team.

AM weirdly have gone backwards though.

You just cannot predict anything besides Rb out front this season, but this defo is 2 on the trot where McL look like a force. Must admit I’m quite happy with that

Crazy, the budget cap + aero aliding scale mixed the grid like we never seen... except...

Hmm. That might actually be a big factor why Mclaren are showing us their heels now.

[Farnborough]

I cant work out their upgrades and the comments surrounding it....Neither can others. They brought the W13 to Bahrain and quickly decided that it was no good, so the concept change they brought to Monaco was in the planning stages for quite a long time. That means that they should understand the performance of the car and how to set it up on a race weekend. The upgrades weren't a blank canvas or a starting point for future (although they are in a way or a patch between seasons).
They were meant to bring this major upgrade to Imola dont forget. They will have know where to work on future upgrades well before now and there is guaranteed to be things in the pipeline.
Its a tight budget these days in F1, so its worth bearing in mind how much they will have spent to bring a Imola upgrade and the potential for ones in the future.

They need to work on something to address the balance issue of the car. Dont get me wrong, the first part of the season they had a very quick car. but with the likes of Williams and Mclaren bringing some serious pace it must be worrying for Mercedes as to where the performance is going/gone. Silverstone was always a strong track for them so be interesting to see what race pace is like.

it would be interesting to have a timeline of the comments on the car from senior team members, what they said future upgrades would be and what the actual result was further down the line at the GP initially mentioned and where it put them. Would put some perspective on the season for them

I just can't tally the assertion that the Bahrain car was a W13 else with the big shift/update planned for Imola would have brought a new chassis design of W14 designation. It wasn't, just a re-hashed front suspension mounting point.

The comments at shakedown (reading between the lines) was that they were stuffed with that design even then, hence the planning and acceptance to modify W14 in any way without re submission of crash test etc. The original concept was a false direction.
They can keep saying the sidepods are unimportant, it's looking more and more tenuous as the other teams improve pace.

[CaribouBread]

I find the flip flopping on the significance of sidepods really amusing. One week its all about the floor and you could put a potato as a sidepod and another week its RB pods will give you at least 4 tenths + 5 inches. (hyperbole)

[Farnborough]

I find the flip flopping on the significance of sidepods really amusing. One week its all about the floor and you could put a potato as a sidepod and another week its RB pods will give you at least 4 tenths + 5 inches. (hyperbole)

I feel it's mostly that MB have completely failed to show, to themselves, that the design they used has tangible in depth performance benefits in real world, against other concept competitors.

That's with all of their analysis tools set to full on afterburner mode