2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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the EDGE
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Thanks Smallsoldier, That is a real shame we can't really compare the Mcl 60 to the 36 ... yet!

Its good to see the data show's McLaren are tackling their slow speed corner weakness, do we think the new front wing will help more with this than it will in the higher speed sections? After all, Piastri was running the old spec and he wasn't far behind

Am I correct in saying that most of the .02 advantage over Ferrari's and Merc's came at the end of the lap? If so, does that show that there wasn't necessarily an advantage that McLaren we're switching their tyres on better, as I would have thought that this would show the advantage would be at the start of the lap and then fade away?

trinidefender
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Darth-Piekus wrote:
08 Jul 2023, 17:33
It is now obvious that the Austria result wasn't a fluke. It proves a few things.

1)James Key and Andreas Seidl were both failures. The first for being overrated as the new Andrian Newey and he only managed to make backwards steps compared to the car that Pat Fry left him with (1 pole, 1-2 in Monza, a missing 2nd pole and a missing 2nd win). The second brought Porshe to domination but F1 is in a completely different league.
2)The Matrix leadership is back and it's proven to deliver results. As a fellow Greek I always believed that Peter Prodromou was a very good aerodynamist anad as it was shown because of James Key his potential was wasted. Along with Neil Oatley who came back and Andrea Stella who produced those last two years fantastic Ferrari cars it's proven to bring results.
3)It's finally proven that having new infrastructure isn't something that will magically give you the front.
1. Andrea Stella has explicitly said that this management structure IS NOT the same as the matrix structure that was in place before. There are clearer lines of reporting and defined responsibilities.

2. While you might be right about key, I do think seidl did a lot of good for the team with his only failure leaving key in that role for so long.

geogate
geogate
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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"They don't want anyone to be under any illusions that they will be capable of this result every race from now on"
we should remember that this is true of absolutely everyone bar Max in a Red Bull.

Spoutnik
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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mclaren111
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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willmesquita wrote:
08 Jul 2023, 23:11
I love this feeling! 🧡

+1 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Farnborough
Farnborough
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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the EDGE wrote:
09 Jul 2023, 10:06
Thanks Smallsoldier, That is a real shame we can't really compare the Mcl 60 to the 36 ... yet!

Its good to see the data show's McLaren are tackling their slow speed corner weakness, do we think the new front wing will help more with this than it will in the higher speed sections? After all, Piastri was running the old spec and he wasn't far behind

Am I correct in saying that most of the .02 advantage over Ferrari's and Merc's came at the end of the lap? If so, does that show that there wasn't necessarily an advantage that McLaren we're switching their tyres on better, as I would have thought that this would show the advantage would be at the start of the lap and then fade away?
Don't forget, there's new tyre iteration here too.

As well as the performance judged in Austria with LN over that weekend, its quite possible that this chassis can derive some level of performance gain from a more resilient tyre.

At different points in a corner, along with ability to generate heat in cold conditions (usually denotes chassis as agressive on tyres) it may be that extending stability over a really fast lap on this new tyre can be better leveraged by this current iteration of McLaren dynamic.

A contribution that others may not be able to fully access.

A very good performance by the whole team regardless of specifics whichever way it's looked at.

Ground Effect
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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trinidefender wrote:
09 Jul 2023, 10:14
Darth-Piekus wrote:
08 Jul 2023, 17:33
It is now obvious that the Austria result wasn't a fluke. It proves a few things.

1)James Key and Andreas Seidl were both failures. The first for being overrated as the new Andrian Newey and he only managed to make backwards steps compared to the car that Pat Fry left him with (1 pole, 1-2 in Monza, a missing 2nd pole and a missing 2nd win). The second brought Porshe to domination but F1 is in a completely different league.
2)The Matrix leadership is back and it's proven to deliver results. As a fellow Greek I always believed that Peter Prodromou was a very good aerodynamist anad as it was shown because of James Key his potential was wasted. Along with Neil Oatley who came back and Andrea Stella who produced those last two years fantastic Ferrari cars it's proven to bring results.
3)It's finally proven that having new infrastructure isn't something that will magically give you the front.
1. Andrea Stella has explicitly said that this management structure IS NOT the same as the matrix structure that was in place before. There are clearer lines of reporting and defined responsibilities.

2. While you might be right about key, I do think seidl did a lot of good for the team with his only failure leaving key in that role for so long.
Agreed, Seidl did a lot for the team. Pushed for the infrastructure upgrades as soon as he arrived, namely wind tunnel, simulator and manufacturing tools. Mercedes engine deal was his initiative and Zak also said he was very instrumental in getting Oscar on board. Unfortunately, the only thing he and Zak didn't agree on was the Audi and Key, but I'm with Zak on both issues.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

Bill
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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trinidefender wrote:
09 Jul 2023, 10:14
Darth-Piekus wrote:
08 Jul 2023, 17:33
It is now obvious that the Austria result wasn't a fluke. It proves a few things.

1)James Key and Andreas Seidl were both failures. The first for being overrated as the new Andrian Newey and he only managed to make backwards steps compared to the car that Pat Fry left him with (1 pole, 1-2 in Monza, a missing 2nd pole and a missing 2nd win). The second brought Porshe to domination but F1 is in a completely different league.
2)The Matrix leadership is back and it's proven to deliver results. As a fellow Greek I always believed that Peter Prodromou was a very good aerodynamist anad as it was shown because of James Key his potential was wasted. Along with Neil Oatley who came back and Andrea Stella who produced those last two years fantastic Ferrari cars it's proven to bring results.
3)It's finally proven that having new infrastructure isn't something that will magically give you the front.
1. Andrea Stella has explicitly said that this management structure IS NOT the same as the matrix structure that was in place before. There are clearer lines of reporting and defined responsibilities.

2. While you might be right about key, I do think seidl did a lot of good for the team with his only failure leaving key in that role for so long.
just remember mclaren won in monza with james key .they could have won in russia with Norris if he got tire strategy right during rain.you should not get overly excited because u got enough time to copy rbr designs,they on the other hand have yet to bring any major upgrade.so if mclaren want to rejoin the big club at the top they got a lot of work to do.

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mclaren111
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Bill wrote:
09 Jul 2023, 11:23
trinidefender wrote:
09 Jul 2023, 10:14
Darth-Piekus wrote:
08 Jul 2023, 17:33
It is now obvious that the Austria result wasn't a fluke. It proves a few things.

1)James Key and Andreas Seidl were both failures. The first for being overrated as the new Andrian Newey and he only managed to make backwards steps compared to the car that Pat Fry left him with (1 pole, 1-2 in Monza, a missing 2nd pole and a missing 2nd win). The second brought Porshe to domination but F1 is in a completely different league.
2)The Matrix leadership is back and it's proven to deliver results. As a fellow Greek I always believed that Peter Prodromou was a very good aerodynamist anad as it was shown because of James Key his potential was wasted. Along with Neil Oatley who came back and Andrea Stella who produced those last two years fantastic Ferrari cars it's proven to bring results.
3)It's finally proven that having new infrastructure isn't something that will magically give you the front.
1. Andrea Stella has explicitly said that this management structure IS NOT the same as the matrix structure that was in place before. There are clearer lines of reporting and defined responsibilities.

2. While you might be right about key, I do think seidl did a lot of good for the team with his only failure leaving key in that role for so long.
just remember mclaren won in monza with james key .they could have won in russia with Norris if he got tire strategy right during rain.you should not get overly excited because u got enough time to copy rbr designs,they on the other hand have yet to bring any major upgrade.so if mclaren want to rejoin the big club at the top they got a lot of work to do.

As stated by Stella, This is Only the Start... Depending on budget restraints, some developments might be delayed for 2024...

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Juzh
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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lando's q3 lap
https://streamable.com/2vwiso

I think unless they have enough pace to drive away from ferraris there's no way they can hold them behind for long. Ferrari is a missile on straights and if they get a sniff of DRS they'll be by in no time.

101FlyingDutchman
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
09 Jul 2023, 11:56
lando's q3 lap
https://streamable.com/2vwiso

I think unless they have enough pace to drive away from ferraris there's no way they can hold them behind for long. Ferrari is a missile on straights and if they get a sniff of DRS they'll be by in no time.
Agreed. Critical first few laps. If they can break the tow with the opposition early on. Perhaps even use PIA as a little blocker (if they manage to stay in position after the start). Once DRS is enabled, it’ll get hard to keep FER and Merc behind. So getting outside of DRS range/tow will make or break our podium chances

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chrisc90
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Its interesting looking at the Nor - Ham telemetry. Does Mclaren run their own gearbox on the back of their car? Lewis' car runs about 400rpm more just about everywhere. The traces look pretty equal to be honest. Lewis clearly loses some tyres at the end of the lap which might be a indication of worse tyre performance. But the gearbox thing is surprising me.
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

Balalu
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
09 Jul 2023, 12:34
Its interesting looking at the Nor - Ham telemetry. Does Mclaren run their own gearbox on the back of their car? Lewis' car runs about 400rpm more just about everywhere. The traces look pretty equal to be honest. Lewis clearly loses some tyres at the end of the lap which might be a indication of worse tyre performance. But the gearbox thing is surprising me.
Yes, McLaren runs its own gearbox.
"I showed him [with my hands] and said: I have bigger balls!” - Mika Hakkinen

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chrisc90
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Thanks for that, Balalu
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

M840TR
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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SmallSoldier wrote:
09 Jul 2023, 08:49
I wanted to do an analysis of how much impact the new upgrades have influenced McLaren’s performance this weekend, but last year’s qualifying session was very wet and the times / telemetry of that session wouldn’t allow us to make a fair comparison year on year… Nevertheless, we may have a few pieces of data that could help.

A couple of comments first:
- The biggest takeaway from qualifying for me was the parity between both drivers, something sorely missed last season… The fact that Piastri was so close to Lando’s time is not only very positive for the team in terms of result, but it also should boost Oscar’s confidence on himself, as well as the team’s confidence on him.
- For year against year comparison, we would have to use FP2, which is the most representative session (both run in the dry), of course engine modes, fuel loads and the fact that we have also a different tire construction this year will have an effect in the results.

FP2 - 2022 (white) vs FP2 - 2023 (orange):

https://i.imgur.com/RhlsrmP.jpg

Not what I would have expected in some aspects, starting with the lap times… The McLaren was faster in 2022 FP2 compared to 2023 FP2, looking at where that time is made/lost would indicate that Lando was pushing a bit harder during FP2 of last year compared to this one (let’s keep in mind that they were doing several correlation tests during FP2 this weekend)… Most of the time lost vs previous year is in turns 1 and 2 (which are flat out) and in the final corner.

But we can see from the telemetry that there is a clear reduction in drag (run from T4 to T5 - Wellington Straight) as well as the time gained in the Hangar Straight, which interestingly places the MCL60 faster when they reach Club (T14)… In addition, and more importantly, the MCL60 carries more speed through the slow corners at the Loop, Brooklands and a very good exit from Chapel.

Even when the times don’t show it, based on the drag reduction and higher minimum corner speed in tricky corners, the MCL60 is clearly ahead of its predecessor.

Since we don’t have good data from Qualifying, which is where it matters… Instead of comparing it to previous year, I thought a look at how they are doing versus their target competitors (Aston Martin, Mercedes and Ferrari… The group we all want them to belong to) might be a good alternative:

Mclaren vs Aston Martin:

https://i.imgur.com/4cVmSSl.jpg

The McLaren is a whooping 7 tenths faster than the Aston during qualifying, Lando did his final lap a little later than Alonso and there is definitely an impact from track evolution on the times, but we can still find out some traits:

A) The Mclaren carries more speed through the corners: Lando manages to gain most of the time against Alonso in the slow corners, in Village, Luffield, the exit of Chappel as well as in Club.
B) The McLaren still loses in the straights: I thought initially that the losses in the straights were due to a more efficient DRS from the Aston, but looking at the telemetry for their fastest laps without DRS, the Aston still has an edge, but even when drag is still involved I still believe that is more of a deployment strategy issue than just drag, since the delta presents itself closer to the 300km/h mark than 250km/h (where we should start to see the impact of drag), the fact that it shows itself around 290km/h may seem to indicate that there is more influence from deployment than there is from drag (without negating that there is still some more drag that needs to be shed.

Mclaren vs Ferrari:

https://i.imgur.com/27RXCZ5.jpg

Lando was capable to beat the Ferrari’s by 2 tenths, where did the time came from:

A) Mclaren still showing more minimum speed in key corners clawing back the time lost in the straights in T4, T5, the exit of Chapel and beating the Ferrari in Stowe and Club… It is the cornering and braking performance of the MCL60 that gave them an edge
B) As with Aston, the MCL60 loses most of it’s time in the straights, but interestingly the time lost there is less than a tenth on either straight.

McLaren vs Mercedes:

https://i.imgur.com/6PahRio.jpg

A little bit of a different picture, in this case there isn’t a clear advantage for McLaren in regards to slow speed (albeit in the beginning of the lap) and there is still more top speed from Mercedes compared to McLaren, although the delta is smaller compared to the others.

Lando beats Hamilton in the final sector, with an impressive exit out of Chapel and Stowe, gaining additional time at Club.

From the above, McLaren clearly still has a deficit in top speed vs their (hopefully new) direct rivals, but a mix of strong low corner speed and traction gives it the edge and helps it overcome it… Still a lot of work for the Team, but there is definitely improvement in key aspects of the car… In a few more races, with more time for the team to dial in the new setup and hopefully more representative qualifying sessions, we should be able to get a more clear picture.
I’m curious as to what the statement drag penalty starting around 250 km/h is based on. The team itself states that the lack of speed is due to aerodynamic inefficiency.