2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[Zynerji]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fuel- ... /10493187/

Fuel burn set for F1 return as result of 2026 engine plan

Speaking at the British Grand Prix, Mercedes F1 engine chief Hywel Thomas, said that manufacturers have long known about the fuel burn aspect.

"Absolutely that will be a thing," he said. "We will be running the engine when the driver is not asking for much torque in order to charge the battery.

"It was well understood when we were coming up with these regulations that that was going to be a part of them. And, with the fuel being sustainable fuel, it was considered that that was an acceptable and relevant approach to that problem."

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Although there was no firm evidence yet about just how much noisier the 2026 engines will be, all indications pointed towards a much-improved situation.

"We haven't got any measurements, and haven't done anything like that," added Thomas. "But surely with the removal of the MGU-H, even though we have still got a turbocharger, it won't be removing as much of the energy as we're currently doing.

"We know the combustion engine will be less efficient and so that will, by physics, mean that there's more noise."

___________
They will have less fuel available, the engines will be less efficient, they will burn fuel for electric power - all while maintaining similar power levels? Make it make sense.

This is soooo dumb. Just ditch the ice and run twin mguk turbos on a common muffler as a generator and move to electric awd already!

[Rodak]

They could go heavy on rear weight bias (although the published regs afaik make no mention of this). 70:30. 80:20?

If they reduce the wheelbase then the weight bias would move further to the rear.

Except that front/rear weight bias is controlled by regulation so that avenue is not open unless they remove the regulation.

4.2 Mass distribution
With the car resting on a horizontal plane the mass measured at the front and rear axles must
not be less than the mass specified in Article 4.1 factored by 0.445 and 0.540 respectively at
all times during the qualifying practice session. Rounding will be to nearest 0.5kg.

[mzso]

Just ditch the ice and run twin mguk turbos on a common muffler as a generator and move to electric awd already!

Uh, what? Muffler as a generator? What does two K-s accomplish? I can't say I can comprehend what this proposal is about?

[AR3-GP]

Could F1 survive as a silent electric car series? I'm not sure that is appealing.

[wuzak]

They could go heavy on rear weight bias (although the published regs afaik make no mention of this). 70:30. 80:20?

If they reduce the wheelbase then the weight bias would move further to the rear.

Except that front/rear weight bias is controlled by regulation so that avenue is not open unless they remove the regulation.

4.2 Mass distribution
With the car resting on a horizontal plane the mass measured at the front and rear axles must
not be less than the mass specified in Article 4.1 factored by 0.445 and 0.540 respectively at
all times during the qualifying practice session. Rounding will be to nearest 0.5kg.

That's for the current rules.

The 2026 rules have yet to be finalised, and the weight balance, as well as the size of the wheels and tyres, could be changed.

[Zynerji]

Just ditch the ice and run twin mguk turbos on a common muffler as a generator and move to electric awd already!

Uh, what? Muffler as a generator? What does two K-s accomplish? I can't say I can comprehend what this proposal is about?

Because you are locked in a tiny box. I've posted the several times before. A turbo can hook to a special type of muffler design and not need an engine to produce combustion gasses. Having 2 mguh turbos on that device would make it a dual turbo-generator. Then build the K into the transmission and it's done.

[Zynerji]

Could F1 survive as a silent electric car series? I'm not sure that is appealing.

That's why you need turbo-jet generators!

[mzso]

Just ditch the ice and run twin mguk turbos on a common muffler as a generator and move to electric awd already!

Uh, what? Muffler as a generator? What does two K-s accomplish? I can't say I can comprehend what this proposal is about?

Because you are locked in a tiny box. I've posted the several times before. A turbo can hook to a special type of muffler design and not need an engine to produce combustion gasses. Having 2 mguh turbos on that device would make it a dual turbo-generator. Then build the K into the transmission and it's done.

If it's not a turbocharger for an ICE, you don't call it a "turbo". "Muffler", doesn't mean anything without context.

[Tommy Cookers]

Just ditch the ice and run twin mguk turbos on a common muffler as a generator and move to electric awd already! 🙄

Uh, what? Muffler as a generator? What does two K-s accomplish? I can't say I can comprehend what this proposal is about?

Because you are locked in a tiny box.
I've posted the several times before.....
A turbo can hook to a special type of muffler design and not need an engine to produce combustion gasses. Having 2 mguh turbos on that device would make it a dual turbo-generator. Then build the K into the transmission and it's done.

and each time it's been posted it's been fantasy
2 tiny gas turbines (each turning a generator)
small gas turbines will be c.25% efficient (yes rotating detonation combustion might allow 30% efficiency)

the world can't see such a thing being the 50% efficient that we need here

[wuzak]

Just ditch the ice and run twin mguk turbos on a common muffler as a generator and move to electric awd already!

Uh, what? Muffler as a generator? What does two K-s accomplish? I can't say I can comprehend what this proposal is about?

Because you are locked in a tiny box. I've posted the several times before. A turbo can hook to a special type of muffler design and not need an engine to produce combustion gasses. Having 2 mguh turbos on that device would make it a dual turbo-generator. Then build the K into the transmission and it's done.

I think it would be lighter to just be a single MGU connected to a gas turbine, which is what you are trying to describe, only making it much more complicated.

Perhaps a 2 shaft gas turbine - 1 shaft connects a turbine to the compressor and the second shaft connects a turbine to the power output/mgu.

The turbines and compressors could have multiple stages to maximise efficiency. But the efficiency is still going to be less than the current ICE.

[Zynerji]

Uh, what? Muffler as a generator? What does two K-s accomplish? I can't say I can comprehend what this proposal is about?

Because you are locked in a tiny box. I've posted the several times before. A turbo can hook to a special type of muffler design and not need an engine to produce combustion gasses. Having 2 mguh turbos on that device would make it a dual turbo-generator. Then build the K into the transmission and it's done.

I think it would be lighter to just be a single MGU connected to a gas turbine, which is what you are trying to describe, only making it much more complicated.

Perhaps a 2 shaft gas turbine - 1 shaft connects a turbine to the compressor and the second shaft connects a turbine to the power output/mgu.

The turbines and compressors could have multiple stages to maximise efficiency. But the efficiency is still going to be less than the current ICE.

Just add the MGUH to this setup...

Uh, what? Muffler as a generator? What does two K-s accomplish? I can't say I can comprehend what this proposal is about?

Because you are locked in a tiny box. I've posted the several times before. A turbo can hook to a special type of muffler design and not need an engine to produce combustion gasses. Having 2 mguh turbos on that device would make it a dual turbo-generator. Then build the K into the transmission and it's done.

If it's not a turbocharger for an ICE, you don't call it a "turbo". "Muffler", doesn't mean anything without context.

See video title.

[Zynerji]

Uh, what? Muffler as a generator? What does two K-s accomplish? I can't say I can comprehend what this proposal is about?

Because you are locked in a tiny box.
I've posted the several times before.....
A turbo can hook to a special type of muffler design and not need an engine to produce combustion gasses. Having 2 mguh turbos on that device would make it a dual turbo-generator. Then build the K into the transmission and it's done.

and each time it's been posted it's been fantasy
2 tiny gas turbines (each turning a generator)
small gas turbines will be c.25% efficient (yes rotating detonation combustion might allow 30% efficiency)

the world can't see such a thing being the 50% efficient that we need here

Why does a sprint race series "need" 50% efficiency?

[Rodak]

If they reduce the wheelbase then the weight bias would move further to the rear.

Except that front/rear weight bias is controlled by regulation so that avenue is not open unless they remove the regulation.

4.2 Mass distribution
With the car resting on a horizontal plane the mass measured at the front and rear axles must
not be less than the mass specified in Article 4.1 factored by 0.445 and 0.540 respectively at
all times during the qualifying practice session. Rounding will be to nearest 0.5kg.

That's for the current rules.

The 2026 rules have yet to be finalised, and the weight balance, as well as the size of the wheels and tyres, could be changed.

That's why I said 'unless they remove the regulation'. Seems pretty late in the game to make major changes.

[Zynerji]

Uh, what? Muffler as a generator? What does two K-s accomplish? I can't say I can comprehend what this proposal is about?

Because you are locked in a tiny box.
I've posted the several times before.....
A turbo can hook to a special type of muffler design and not need an engine to produce combustion gasses. Having 2 mguh turbos on that device would make it a dual turbo-generator. Then build the K into the transmission and it's done.

and each time it's been posted it's been fantasy
2 tiny gas turbines (each turning a generator)
small gas turbines will be c.25% efficient (yes rotating detonation combustion might allow 30% efficiency)

the world can't see such a thing being the 50% efficient that we need here

Don't make fun of RDE technology. It is literally making the case to add a Groove to the list of simple machines!

[wuzak]

Except that front/rear weight bias is controlled by regulation so that avenue is not open unless they remove the regulation.

That's for the current rules.

The 2026 rules have yet to be finalised, and the weight balance, as well as the size of the wheels and tyres, could be changed.

That's why I said 'unless they remove the regulation'. Seems pretty late in the game to make major changes.

They don't have to remove the regulation because the regulation has yet to be finalised.