2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[AR3-GP]

RB pretty much secured the 2022 - 2025 regs for themselves with the RB18 as the baseline model,

Yes and maybe not: How do you all feel about tyre blanket ban?

This may change dramatically the pecking order for 2024

For instance we know that Aston doesn’t like cold tracks, they need very hot one and we can see the impact it have on them

So if there is new tyres, Pirelli already warn that it will be totally different, hence change the order I believe

The tyre blanket ban is not confirmed. Some of the most politically powerful F1 teams are against it

[organic]

RB pretty much secured the 2022 - 2025 regs for themselves with the RB18 as the baseline model,

Yes and maybe not: How do you all feel about tyre blanket ban?

This may change dramatically the pecking order for 2024

For instance we know that Aston doesn’t like cold tracks, they need very hot one and we can see the impact it have on them

So if there is new tyres, Pirelli already warn that it will be totally different, hence change the order I believe

The tyre blanket ban is not confirmed. Some of the most politically powerful F1 teams are against it

Wary of straying off topic but just for clarity:

Proposed 2024 tyre blankets ban will be voted on 31st July 2023, so in a couple of weeks time.

[ValeVida46]

Nobody remembers 2nd-10th place. I couldn't tell you where AMR or Mclaren finished last year with 100% accuracy. I just know it was somewhere at the back and they got a load of WT hours as a reward. Likewise, in 1-2 years time, I will likely not remember that Mercedes finished 2nd in 2023.

No, they aren't remembered quite correct. But then the 3rd, 4th, 5th placed teams don't get anywhere near as much negativity for being placed below Mercedes. This inconsistency leads to pages of utter drivel.
Someone will quote an inconsistency from Toto, Allison, Hamilton or Russell. And this will then be cited as good reason to continue flinging the mud. But then again, inconsistencies from Krack/Alonso, Vassuer/Sainz/LeClerc, Brown/Norris will pass uncontested. I could list the absolute gems of clangers these guys have said this season...but it wouldn't make a jot of difference.

Mercedes likely will finish 2nd in the WCC, but as I said above, no one remembers that. If Mclaren's plan to piss away 30 races and some change leads to an actual title, the title will be remembered more.

Agree, but there aren't guarantees. And I don't see Mercedes finishing 2nd if hopefully, they have already moved onto shifting resources onto next years car.

I have seen even more criticism from fans of Mercedes and it's drivers in other places. Suggestions that Hamilton should quit this team. Constant jokes about the W13, etc etc. Anyway, Mercedes don't need to pander to random people on the internet or suits and ties in Stuttgart. They need to pander to a championship and strategize accordingly.

I try avoid driver related debates. Fanatical driver supporters will never ever have a consistent and cogent argument.
Mercedes though do have a loyal base, as do others. Reaching out to fans is one of many ways teams operate. It's showbiz after all.

"Concertina development pattern". I like this. I like how you have summarized it.

Trademarked

[AR3-GP]

No, they aren't remembered quite correct. But then the 3rd, 4th, 5th placed teams don't get anywhere near as much negativity for being placed below Mercedes. This inconsistency leads to pages of utter drivel.
Someone will quote an inconsistency from Toto, Allison, Hamilton or Russell. And this will then be cited as good reason to continue flinging the mud. But then again, inconsistencies from Krack/Alonso, Vassuer/Sainz/LeClerc, Brown/Norris will pass uncontested. I could list the absolute gems of clangers these guys have said this season...but it wouldn't make a jot of difference.

The standards are in fact different. Neither of Mclaren or AMR have their own windtunnel at this point. They also take customer engines. AMR is only allowed to use the Merc windtunnel on weekends, reportedly. AMR is buying suspension from Merc. Compromise. Both of those teams are only now from '24, and '25 onwards gaining access to infrastructure that can rival Mercedes. Naturally, this leads to differing expectation. After all, there is a reason that Mercedes was stringing together WCCs at a canter, while one team has gone through more name changes than seasons, and the other was more known for driver silly season, than their cars (until recently). To suggest that those teams should be viewed in the same lense as one with much more legacy resources is unfair. Although the additional Wind Tunnel hours mitigates things somewhat.

The fact that people think Mercedes should be much higher than they are, and mention it, should be seen as flattery. The team that they used to be is clearly held to some esteem which means the current situation is unbecoming.

[ringo]

I think that mercedes are underestimating the effect of sidepod design.
The pods are not so much for downforce as much as they are for drag reduction and segregating clean airflows.
They could do well with those redbull "pidgeon belly" sidepods as i presented in the car comparisons thread. It's the one thing they haven't tried to remedy their top speed problems. In fact i think this bulb shape acts to reduce drag from tyre wake and outwash interraction as well as the floor edge.

The waterslides are important. But note that teams with waterslides that lack the undercut bulb or belly do not have the efficiency of a redbull or mclaren or alpine.
Aston Martin is one such team. Their car is too chiseled.
So i agree with keep developing. Track time is very important for testing these days.
Any solution found this year and tried on track will take a lot of guess work out of the following car.
I am not confident with mercedes simulation tools. They always think they have a eureka moment only to be let down.
Let em keep copying and bringing the parts to the races this year, i dont mind. But they must try that pidgeon belly feature. Try every square inch they can glean from the rb19.

The team just need to zone in on the finer details before writing anythingn off.

[Willy]

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Let em keep copying and bringing the parts to the races this year, i dont mind. But they must try that pidgeon belly feature. Try every square inch they can glean from the rb19.

Copying will always keep them one step behind. If the target for Mercedes is to finish second, then that's the way to go.

[r85]

Let em keep copying and bringing the parts to the races this year, i dont mind. But they must try that pidgeon belly feature. Try every square inch they can glean from the rb19.

That means they would again have to scrap their concept and redesign every part to make the Red Bull sidepods work. They'll probably try to get all those benefits with their own design because it's way too late for another concept change

[SparkyAMG]

I think, put simply, Mercedes haven't got the ability to go all in on sidepods this year because of their tub and cooling solution which is why they've been downplaying their significance and focusing instead on things they can change.

If that means that they've still got low hanging fruit in terms of performance to find for next year's car then that's good news.

As for McLaren, they've made a big leap, but only into the chasing pack. According to the comments from other Team Principles they're likely no closer to Red Bull than anyone else given the ebs and flows in performance at each race, so whilst they should be applauded for that step, they're just another team in the chasing pack with a chunk of performance still to find.

[Spoutnik]

Or what if Merc did a McLaren and waited 9 races before showing up, would they have been even more out of their depth?

At this point no one has won a race besides RB. 2nd in the WCC is certainly an accomplishment and testament to Mercs consistency, but Merc will get bored of consistently finishing 2nd. That arguably happened last year already. Teams like AMR and Mclaren have made big jumps, and to me that is more impressive.

As an example, one would not pat Ferrari on the back even though they've been 2nd/3rd in the WCC for a number of years. I think it's more promising to show that you can make significant improvement because it shows an understanding of development direction when you can do that. Mclaren have now done that. That Mercedes seem to be stalled (like Ferrari had been for the last decade), doesn't really make for promise. Hamilton certainly would not be happy to have the 2nd fastest car for the next 5 years, with the same deficit to RB all along the way.

If Merc had done what Mclaren did, it would show they are on the right path and you could almost overlook the beginning of the season because they clearly understood where they went wrong. With Merc waffling about with the performance of sidepods, floors, and whether or not they should be copying someone else, it's a bit disconcerting.

Caveat of course is that they have the 2nd place windtunnel hours. So it's no surprise they are more limited. I suggested they should strategically tank the WCC previously.

At this point, I'm looking more to Mclaren since they carry the P6 WindTunnel hours for the rest of the season. A sizeable advantage over RB and Mercedes. Mclaren look like they will be the ones to trouble RB in 2024 and their driver lineup is just as impressive as Mercs and more balanced than RBs (unless they bring Ricciardo).

RB pretty much secured the 2022 - 2025 regs for themselves with the RB18 as the baseline model, which was built with their allotted CFD/WT time from 2021. It's more about prize money than development time, which is why Mercedes was still going for P2 last year (and for competition's sake).

In 2021, the rhetoric was that Merc didnt bring any major upgrade (bar Silverstone + the engine trick at the end of the year) to completly focus on 2022 while Red Bull was bringing update and sacrificied the 2022 development...

In the end, we saw what we saw

[ValeVida46]

The standards are in fact different.

Same rules. Same budget. So a perceived standard is exactly that, and not factual by any means.

Neither of Mclaren or AMR have their own windtunnel at this point.

And both have more wind tunnel time. Besides not having their own windtunnel, they have the knowhow to set up and use a wind tunnel that isn't their own. It's a tool, not a restrictive paradigm. Red Bull are using a "cold war relic" windtunnel after all...

They also take customer engines.

So? Parameters are set by the FIA, supply is equal to what the factory get. And how are you devising a metric of criticising a team based on their engine supply?
Mercedes are supplying 3 other teams, 2 of which are competitive. Honda Supply 2 of which Red Bull own the other. Ferrari supply the bottom 2 of 3 teams on the grid in Haas and Alpha. Pretty sure that the chassis and aero play a far larger than engines. Of course I'd be willing to hear anyone disputing that today.

AMR is buying suspension from Merc. Compromise.

If it was conducive to performance for them to build their own, they would. Instead they relied on Mercedes, and highly likely saved money to spend elsewhere. So a positive compromise with a positive by product of freeing up money and staff for other areas. An advantageous compromise for AM.

To suggest that those teams should be viewed in the same lense as one with much more legacy resources is unfair. Although the additional Wind Tunnel hours mitigates things somewhat.
The fact that people think Mercedes should be much higher than they are, and mention it, should be seen as flattery. The team that they used to be is clearly held to some esteem which means the current situation is unbecoming.

McLaren use one of the best wind tunnels in the business. Toyota's cologne facility is world class by any standard.
They can also use it for longer than Mercedes can use their own as you say. The only downside is commuting to Cologne, which is calculated by McLaren as they wanted world class facilities.

So using a Merc rear or a Toyota windtunnel does not offset the fact they get more time to develop.
And perceptions of a teams ambitions is subjective.
Most reasonable people can accept that teams go through these phases off the back of a winning era. No team has a divine right to win, regardless of heritage or reputation.

[CHT]

I think, put simply, Mercedes haven't got the ability to go all in on sidepods this year because of their tub and cooling solution which is why they've been downplaying their significance and focusing instead on things they can change.

If that means that they've still got low hanging fruit in terms of performance to find for next year's car then that's good news.

As for McLaren, they've made a big leap, but only into the chasing pack. According to the comments from other Team Principles they're likely no closer to Red Bull than anyone else given the ebs and flows in performance at each race, so whilst they should be applauded for that step, they're just another team in the chasing pack with a chunk of performance still to find.

RBR is the only team running Honda engine so it's possible RBR may have an engine performance advantage as well. Hence aero development may still have its limitation in catching Max.

So the best outcome for 2024, may just be the best of the rest.

[dans79]

Just seems that fans have lost a bit of faith in Mercedes.

imo, the ones that's have lost faith are the fairweather fans, and those fans who jump from one team/driver to the another, because they "can't only be associated with people winning".

[j_ste]

Just seems that fans have lost a bit of faith in Mercedes.

imo, the ones that's have lost faith are the fairweather fans, and those fans who jump from one team/driver to the another, because they "can't only be associated with people winning".

If that were true, they wouldnt be disappointed because they'd have moved on already.

In reality, the frustration stems from never shaking the feeling of AD21. Righting a clear wrong and seeing those chances slip away.

[Willy]

Just seems that fans have lost a bit of faith in Mercedes.

imo, the ones that's have lost faith are the fairweather fans, and those fans who jump from one team/driver to the another, because they "can't only be associated with people winning".

I don't think Mercedes has genuine fan following per se. Most current Mercedes fans are Lewis fans that came over from McLaren. I bet if Lewis leaves the team and Mercedes continues to be 2nd best or 3rd best, they would hardly have any following. Even if Lewis continues for another few years, but Mercedes doesn't have a winner, we would see the same with slightly lesser effect. Ferrari and McLaren have special following in that sense.

[dans79]

I don't think Mercedes has genuine fan following per se. Most current Mercedes fans are Lewis fans that came over from McLaren. I bet if Lewis leaves the team and Mercedes continues to be 2nd best or 3rd best, they would hardly have any following. Even if Lewis continues for another few years, but Mercedes doesn't have a winner, we would see the same with slightly lesser effect. Ferrari and McLaren have special following in that sense.

I think Merc is building a following based on how they approach the sport.