2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[AR3-GP]

High operating temperature also increases the thermal efficiency of the ICE.

[Willy]

if Merc is still unable to close the gap on RBR, I reckon the team may throw in the towel and switch their focus on 2026 car instead of 2025.

I think FIA would not publish the 2026 aero regulations until 2025 to ensure no one team gets upper hand. Probably also limit the development start date like they did for 2022 cars. Red Bull might prefer the regulations be publish as early as possible to start work.

[CHT]

High operating temperature also increases the thermal efficiency of the ICE.

I believe that was the intent and to further their advantage Merc aero designers have come up with a zero side pod concept to maintain elevated engine temperature while reducing drag. Perhaps that is the reason why Merc took such a long time to decide if they should abandon the zero-side pod design because both PU and bodywork are designed as a unit.

[proteus]

Copying can win you a championship. It's a short cut to reduce expense and buy more time to develop.
In fact in a cost cap era i am surprised there is not more copying. Copying is what's done in engineering and manufacturing to reduce costs and achieve schedule milestones on projects.
What should be done is copy, save time and money on R&D, then put the R&D resource and time into developing the copied car to find that unique edge to challenge redbull.
The team is so far behind, I am afraid that copying is all they can do to close the gap in the least time possible, then build from there.

My question is why some of the brain power fled the team in recent years which were responsible for such dominance in the past. Was it due to getting better money elsewhere, searching for new challenges or due to general climate in the team.

When i saw the car last year for the first time, i was certain title was theirs, and i couldnt even imagine they would flunk so hard with it.

[zibby43]

Copying can win you a championship. It's a short cut to reduce expense and buy more time to develop.
In fact in a cost cap era i am surprised there is not more copying. Copying is what's done in engineering and manufacturing to reduce costs and achieve schedule milestones on projects.
What should be done is copy, save time and money on R&D, then put the R&D resource and time into developing the copied car to find that unique edge to challenge redbull.
The team is so far behind, I am afraid that copying is all they can do to close the gap in the least time possible, then build from there.

My question is why some of the brain power fled the team in recent years which were responsible for such dominance in the past. Was it due to getting better money elsewhere, searching for new challenges or due to general climate in the team.

When i saw the car last year for the first time, i was certain title was theirs, and i couldnt even imagine they would flunk so hard with it.

I think Toto has alluded to the fact that some of the compensation these former staff members were being offered by rivals was significantly more.

[ringo]

The small cooling area requirement does not need the zero pods. An extreme version of the waterslide can be used with this PU, and this is why the Aston looks as extreme as it does.

[BMMR61]

The whole notion of “copying” tends to get overhyped. Convergence of cars through evolution is a product of observation and….. errrr, copying. There’s no benefit in “copying” without understanding the reasons why aspects of a design are or aren’t working. It seems that Mercedes atm are stuck in a period of confusion over why some aspects are or aren’t working. Wind tunnel and modelling correlation is part of it.

McLaren got stuck in one of these periods where they couldn’t get an understanding of the new ground effect era. When they abandoned their 2023 design concept it took six months to get to Austria and Silverstone. That period gave them sufficient correlation and testing to be confident they had found something. Seemed like the factory guys knew it was really good and over a few stiff drinks with Mika Hakkinen secrets were revealed. Mika got it outrageously right and McLaren are now in a period - for however long - of understanding their concept and upcoming updates.

At the moment, and I’m trying not to sound gleeful about it, Ferrari and Mercedes are a bit lost with their concept and upgrade paths, AM appear to have run out of fresh ideas and Alpine, well they’re Alpine aren’t they? Williams have found something and it seems heavily biased towards top speed but at the expense of slower corners. The same suspicion is also levelled at McLaren.

Mercedes is the all rounder - sounds a bit boring, especially when you’re trying to close the gap to a runaway RedBull. If 2nd in the WCC is unappealing to the team they could do a McLaren and sacrifice most upgrade effort in favour of concentrating on a new car for 2024. My belief is that continuing upgrades deep in season gives valuable feedback for the next iteration. It’s always hard to come out of a period of dominance and to rebuild but there’s still so much talent at Mercedes it’s hard not to see them being a contender again very soon.

[InsaneX_Badger]

I don't think Mercedes has genuine fan following per se. Most current Mercedes fans are Lewis fans that came over from McLaren. I bet if Lewis leaves the team and Mercedes continues to be 2nd best or 3rd best, they would hardly have any following. Even if Lewis continues for another few years, but Mercedes doesn't have a winner, we would see the same with slightly lesser effect. Ferrari and McLaren have special following in that sense.

I believe that as well when discussing with friends. I am also a McLaren fan, following closely Merc because of Lewis for the past decade+. In order to find true Merc fans you need to go down to the younger people now 15-30 years old. The first memories they have is the silver arrows winning deciding to support that team. I am 43 and my first memories are the epic battles of Senna with Prost and Mansell.
F1 is unique (ok along with some more sports) were you can do indeed follow a driver beyond the team. I mean all I wanted when Senna got in that dreaded Williams, was for Williams to win. I do the same now with Lewis, but I am getting excited that my fav team is getting its act together.
Still, now I want Hamilton to become once again a world champion and Merc to give him that chance.
Going over to Ferrari would be the biggest marketing move in F1 ever and especially if he won a championship with them he would become the undisputed legend of all time probably for all time...And I would be cheering for the red car (for just 1 year...)

As someone who's in the age range you stated I agree tbh, I always think where would I go to support if Lewis retires and I always come back to McLaren and Lando to who I would support going forward

[Just_a_fan]

I don't think Mercedes has genuine fan following per se. Most current Mercedes fans are Lewis fans that came over from McLaren. I bet if Lewis leaves the team and Mercedes continues to be 2nd best or 3rd best, they would hardly have any following. Even if Lewis continues for another few years, but Mercedes doesn't have a winner, we would see the same with slightly lesser effect. Ferrari and McLaren have special following in that sense.

I believe that as well when discussing with friends. I am also a McLaren fan, following closely Merc because of Lewis for the past decade+. In order to find true Merc fans you need to go down to the younger people now 15-30 years old. The first memories they have is the silver arrows winning deciding to support that team. I am 43 and my first memories are the epic battles of Senna with Prost and Mansell.
F1 is unique (ok along with some more sports) were you can do indeed follow a driver beyond the team. I mean all I wanted when Senna got in that dreaded Williams, was for Williams to win. I do the same now with Lewis, but I am getting excited that my fav team is getting its act together.
Still, now I want Hamilton to become once again a world champion and Merc to give him that chance.
Going over to Ferrari would be the biggest marketing move in F1 ever and especially if he won a championship with them he would become the undisputed legend of all time probably for all time...And I would be cheering for the red car (for just 1 year...)

As someone who's in the age range you stated I agree tbh, I always think where would I go to support if Lewis retires and I always come back to McLaren and Lando to who I would support going forward

I follow, with some affection, what happens at Williams and McLaren because they were the ones doing the exciting stuff back in the day when I was really getting in to F1 and are still around today - Mansell, Senna, Prost, etc.. I'll continue to follow Mercedes if just to see how they get on and for how long they stay.

I used to have an affection for Minardi - partly because they were the ultimate underdog but also because they took on promising young drivers - Webber and Alonso, for example, started with them - even though they would obviously be gone to the big teams very soon. Can't say the same for the team they became because that lost the plucky underdog role and is now just a "tag along" team.

I miss Lotus, too. And Brabham (with their iconic Olivetti livery) although I really only remember those two from their twilight.

[JordanMugen]

Mercedes is the all rounder - sounds a bit boring, especially when you’re trying to close the gap to a runaway RedBull.

There is no "big bit". Just keep finding lots of little bits.

If Mercedes can understand how Red Bull's concept works, then it will likely inform them of what they might be missing in their design concept.

They could do that, or Mercedes GP could come up with their own ideas which are better. Either would do if Mercedes seek to win races.

Red Bull themselves are likely to simply bring an evolution for their 2024 car, as that is (largely) the Newey way: create a concept and refine it.

Mercedes again will have a blank canvas for 2024, as they did for 2022 & 2023, to create the ultimate performance machine they can dream of. Or they could just tweak the W14 a bit, whichever they think would be better.

On the power unit side, we saw that Honda and Renault achieved gains by copying the Mercedes' split turbo, so there is definitely merit in copying good ideas.

[Willy]

They could do that, or Mercedes GP could come up with their own ideas which are better. Either would do if Mercedes seek to win races.

On the power unit side, we saw that Honda and Renault achieved gains by copying the Mercedes' split turbo, so there is definitely merit in copying good ideas.

Time and corporate impatience is the key. The longer they take to get back to winning, the more the chances of disruptive org changes. Toto might be asked to step down, Allison might be fired and so on.

[Henri]

The new front wing has helped in slow speed Hungary should be hood for merc... McLaren have made a big jump in highspeed corners faster than redbull

[qatmix]

Regarding them panicking and making disruptive staff changes. They are still second on the championship. There is no short term thinking going to happen with any drastic changes.

[Just_a_fan]

They could do that, or Mercedes GP could come up with their own ideas which are better. Either would do if Mercedes seek to win races.

On the power unit side, we saw that Honda and Renault achieved gains by copying the Mercedes' split turbo, so there is definitely merit in copying good ideas.

Time and corporate impatience is the key. The longer they take to get back to winning, the more the chances of disruptive org changes. Toto might be asked to step down, Allison might be fired and so on.

This is Mercedes, not Ferrari. There won't be blood letting by the board just because of a blip. You don't lightly dump the guys that gave you several titles back-to-back. Well, you do if you're Ferrari.

[Willy]

They could do that, or Mercedes GP could come up with their own ideas which are better. Either would do if Mercedes seek to win races.

On the power unit side, we saw that Honda and Renault achieved gains by copying the Mercedes' split turbo, so there is definitely merit in copying good ideas.

Time and corporate impatience is the key. The longer they take to get back to winning, the more the chances of disruptive org changes. Toto might be asked to step down, Allison might be fired and so on.

This is Mercedes, not Ferrari. There won't be blood letting by the board just because of a blip. You don't lightly dump the guys that gave you several titles back-to-back. Well, you do if you're Ferrari.

Isn't it the same Mercedes whose shareholders wanted to stop the F1 program for lack of success in 2012? If Mercedes would have gone without success for another couple of years, they most likely wouldn't be on the grid today. They then sold 1/3rd stakes to Toto and recently another 1/3rd to INEOS. They also pulled out of Formula E. There is more to board room politics than emotions of a layman supporter.