2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Cs98]

Time and corporate impatience is the key. The longer they take to get back to winning, the more the chances of disruptive org changes. Toto might be asked to step down, Allison might be fired and so on.

This is Mercedes, not Ferrari. There won't be blood letting by the board just because of a blip. You don't lightly dump the guys that gave you several titles back-to-back. Well, you do if you're Ferrari.

Isn't it the same Mercedes whose shareholders wanted to stop the F1 program for lack of success in 2012? If Mercedes would have gone without success for another couple of years, they most likely wouldn't be on the grid today. They then sold 1/3rd stakes to Toto and recently another 1/3rd to INEOS. They also pulled out of Formula E. There is more to board room politics than emotions of a layman supporter.

Honda will attest to that.

[Just_a_fan]

Time and corporate impatience is the key. The longer they take to get back to winning, the more the chances of disruptive org changes. Toto might be asked to step down, Allison might be fired and so on.

This is Mercedes, not Ferrari. There won't be blood letting by the board just because of a blip. You don't lightly dump the guys that gave you several titles back-to-back. Well, you do if you're Ferrari.

Isn't it the same Mercedes whose shareholders wanted to stop the F1 program for lack of success in 2012? If Mercedes would have gone without success for another couple of years, they most likely wouldn't be on the grid today. They then sold 1/3rd stakes to Toto and recently another 1/3rd to INEOS. They also pulled out of Formula E. There is more to board room politics than emotions of a layman supporter.

2012 was before the team won several titles back-to-back. That's a rather important fact.

[Just_a_fan]

This is Mercedes, not Ferrari. There won't be blood letting by the board just because of a blip. You don't lightly dump the guys that gave you several titles back-to-back. Well, you do if you're Ferrari.

Isn't it the same Mercedes whose shareholders wanted to stop the F1 program for lack of success in 2012? If Mercedes would have gone without success for another couple of years, they most likely wouldn't be on the grid today. They then sold 1/3rd stakes to Toto and recently another 1/3rd to INEOS. They also pulled out of Formula E. There is more to board room politics than emotions of a layman supporter.

Honda will attest to that.

Honda have had a very odd relationship with F1 over the years. They seem to wait until it's all about to go really well and then leave.

[AR3-GP]

This is Mercedes, not Ferrari. There won't be blood letting by the board just because of a blip. You don't lightly dump the guys that gave you several titles back-to-back. Well, you do if you're Ferrari.

Isn't it the same Mercedes whose shareholders wanted to stop the F1 program for lack of success in 2012? If Mercedes would have gone without success for another couple of years, they most likely wouldn't be on the grid today. They then sold 1/3rd stakes to Toto and recently another 1/3rd to INEOS. They also pulled out of Formula E. There is more to board room politics than emotions of a layman supporter.

Honda will attest to that.

iirc, Norbert Haug was forced to "fall on a knife" very early on in the program despite likely being one of the architects of the PU dominance. Mike Elliot has also been "recycled". Everyone pays the piper, eventually.

[ValeVida46]

Isn't it the same Mercedes whose shareholders wanted to stop the F1 program for lack of success in 2012? If Mercedes would have gone without success for another couple of years, they most likely wouldn't be on the grid today. They then sold 1/3rd stakes to Toto and recently another 1/3rd to INEOS. They also pulled out of Formula E. There is more to board room politics than emotions of a layman supporter.

Sure is, the same Mercedes and the same noises. Going all the way back to "concept by Mercedes-Benz" logos on the Sauber C12 and blew up as regular as my Labrador's bowels, which brought a comms letter to Jurgen Schrempp from the Merc labour union leader as to why they have fancy projects while staff are getting laid off.
2002/3 Same thing, same dude.
2009/10? Same thing different guy (Zetsche).
30 years later, people chatting the same story of exits.

Only there is now a variety of issues with Mer-xit(tradmarked).
The team was never wholly owned by Mercedes. Management (Brawn et al) owned shares and AAbar partnered before INEOS and Wolff bought those shares.
Stuttgart arent putting much to any money in today.
They're developing an engine for 2026.
They will be drawing money out with future engine caps.
They literally set up a seperate brand in AMG with autonomy in model control. So successful(and profitable) they actually did the new SL instead of "merc" themsevles.
Of course the team is also branded Mercedes-AMG now, for good reason. Pesky labour unions? Less of problem now due to the structural autonomy, and a huge % profit per unit return.
Pulling out of FE actually solidifies Mercedes commitment to F1, it didn't provide the audience numbers they wanted.
In fact, they literally won the title and left, the exact anti-thesis of what you are suggesting they will do now.

iirc, Norbert Haug was forced to "fall on a knife" very early on in the program despite likely being one of the architects of the PU dominance.

If Haug's name was Andy Cowell, sure.
Haug, a great guy(met twice) and seen him drift his R107....would be the first to admit he was not the architect of Mercs PU dominance. He was the guy that shielded the team and reported back under the old model. His head had to roll according to that method.
Exactly why Zetsche shifted away from that into the autonomous AMG model.

[Just_a_fan]

Isn't it the same Mercedes whose shareholders wanted to stop the F1 program for lack of success in 2012? If Mercedes would have gone without success for another couple of years, they most likely wouldn't be on the grid today. They then sold 1/3rd stakes to Toto and recently another 1/3rd to INEOS. They also pulled out of Formula E. There is more to board room politics than emotions of a layman supporter.

Honda will attest to that.

iirc, Norbert Haug was forced to "fall on a knife" very early on in the program despite likely being one of the architects of the PU dominance. Mike Elliot has also been "recycled". Everyone pays the piper, eventually.

Haug left in 2012, before the long run of titles. The team was founded in 2010 and they had one win in 3 seasons. Lauda had also recently joined the team as director and that made them look top heavy. So the guy that was a journalist, by training, left and the guy that was a racer remained. And the racer got Hamilton to join and the rest, as they say, is history.

Elliot has been put back in to a role that he appears to be much more suited to and happier in.

So, really, the idea that the Daimler board is suddenly going to shoot Toto (who, remember, owns 33% of the team) is laughable.

[Just_a_fan]

Haug, a great guy(met twice) and seen him drift his R107....would be the first to admit he was not the architect of Mercs PU dominance. He was the guy that shielded the team and reported back under the old model. His head had to roll according to that method.
Exactly why Zetsche shifted away from that into the autonomous AMG model.

Exactly. Haug was a journalist, not an engineer. A journalist that loved racing, yes, but not an engineer designing powertains.

His role was to develop the Merc motorsport brand - which he did very well indeed with projects such as Le Mans, DTM, ITCC.

An amazing guy that did a huge amount for motorsport, but not an architect of Merc's PU dominance.

[ringo]

The new front wing has helped in slow speed Hungary should be hood for merc... McLaren have made a big jump in highspeed corners faster than redbull

I think Mclaren are strong in slow corners too. Someone posted a lap trace in the ferrari thread, and I think the mclaren had higher speeds after braking ( the valley in the graph) than Ferrari consistently. And the Ferrari is known to be good at low speed, So I do not think this MCL60 car has any weaknesses now. It's just not as good as a redbull.

This diagram above is showing Mvclaren stronger than Ferrari everywhere, So I think Lando could threaten for pole.
I do not know where this will put mercedes, but their customer teams have been their biggest rivals this year ironically.

[AR3-GP]

iirc, Norbert Haug was forced to "fall on a knife" very early on in the program despite likely being one of the architects of the PU dominance.

If Haug's name was Andy Cowell, sure.
Haug, a great guy(met twice) and seen him drift his R107....would be the first to admit he was not the architect of Mercs PU dominance. He was the guy that shielded the team and reported back under the old model. His head had to roll according to that method.
Exactly why Zetsche shifted away from that into the autonomous AMG model.

I never said Haug was "the Architect". I said he was "one of them". Norbert Haug's association with Mercedes motorsport operations predates Andy Cowell by a few decades... He was generally the "all things to do with Mercedes in motorsport" guy. Cowell may have directly led Brixworth, but there are levels above that enable things like this. There's all of the politics which led to the rules in the first place and making sure the team survived to see that 2014 season. That's why I name Haug as part of their success. He's the guy that had to fall on a knife so others could run.

Now that engines are quite equal, the team does not look all that much better than it's 2012/2013 reincarnation which is ironic because Haug was sacked for basically having a 2022/2023 run.

[ValeVida46]

I never said Haug was "the Architect". I said he was "one of them". Norbert Haug's association with Mercedes motorsport operations predates Andy Cowell by a few decades... He was generally the "all things to do with Mercedes in motorsport" guy. Cowell may have directly led Brixworth, but there are levels above that enable things like this. That's why I name Haug as part of their success. He's the guy that had to fall on a knife so others could run.

Well...you typed this.

despite likely being one of the architects of the PU dominance.

[AR3-GP]

I never said Haug was "the Architect". I said he was "one of them". Norbert Haug's association with Mercedes motorsport operations predates Andy Cowell by a few decades... He was generally the "all things to do with Mercedes in motorsport" guy. Cowell may have directly led Brixworth, but there are levels above that enable things like this. That's why I name Haug as part of their success. He's the guy that had to fall on a knife so others could run.

Well...you typed this.

despite likely being one of the architects of the PU dominance.

It's not clear to me what is confusing. Is it not explained in what you have quoted?

I never said Haug was "the Architect". I said he was "one of them".

[Willy]

iirc, Norbert Haug was forced to "fall on a knife" very early on in the program despite likely being one of the architects of the PU dominance.

If Haug's name was Andy Cowell, sure.
Haug, a great guy(met twice) and seen him drift his R107....would be the first to admit he was not the architect of Mercs PU dominance. He was the guy that shielded the team and reported back under the old model. His head had to roll according to that method.
Exactly why Zetsche shifted away from that into the autonomous AMG model.

I never said Haug was "the Architect". I said he was "one of them". Norbert Haug's association with Mercedes motorsport operations predates Andy Cowell by a few decades... He was generally the "all things to do with Mercedes in motorsport" guy. Cowell may have directly led Brixworth, but there are levels above that enable things like this. That's why I name Haug as part of their success. He's the guy that had to fall on a knife so others could run.

Is Toto the next Haug if things don't improve? Accountability and moral responsibility is the key for organizational excellence. Toto is also part owner and the head of the team. Will he keep his stakes if he has to leave the team leader role?

[taperoo2k]

If Haug's name was Andy Cowell, sure.
Haug, a great guy(met twice) and seen him drift his R107....would be the first to admit he was not the architect of Mercs PU dominance. He was the guy that shielded the team and reported back under the old model. His head had to roll according to that method.
Exactly why Zetsche shifted away from that into the autonomous AMG model.

I never said Haug was "the Architect". I said he was "one of them". Norbert Haug's association with Mercedes motorsport operations predates Andy Cowell by a few decades... He was generally the "all things to do with Mercedes in motorsport" guy. Cowell may have directly led Brixworth, but there are levels above that enable things like this. That's why I name Haug as part of their success. He's the guy that had to fall on a knife so others could run.

Is Toto the next Haug if things don't improve? Accountability and moral responsibility is the key for organizational excellence. Toto is also part owner and the head of the team. Will he keep his stakes if he has to leave the team leader role?

Toto took the foundations that Ross Brawn built and expanded on them. He's one of the reasons
as to why Mercedes were so dominant. He's the team principal and CEO of them, if he leaves a role then
I expect it would be the team principal job.

Mercedes will probably be playing catch up between now and 2025 realistically. Unless James Allison (and his team) figures the aero regulations out and produces a car that can challenge Red Bull. I do think Red Bull expect at least one of the teams to catch them up.

[ValeVida46]

It's not clear to me what is confusing. Is it not explained in what you have quoted?

I never said Haug was "the Architect". I said he was "one of them".

I don't think Haug was one of the architects of Mercs PU dominance. As I said, if you watch any of his interviews, the guy was literally Stuttgarts go between and he had no qualms being fourth fiddle to Mario Illien, Paul Morgan, Andy Cowell, Ron Dennis and Ross Brawn.
What I credit him for was leading Mercedes into F1, Supplying McLaren with free engines and 70m a season, and then push Stuttgart into buying Brawn after Spygate. I also credit him for being a great guy and communicator that was a brilliant ambassador for Merc. None of these has anything to do with Mercedes PU dominance, as it specifically relates to technicalities and structures way beyond what Haug would be effective at, because it literally wasn't his job to structure, design or source the right staff.

But you do you.

[AR3-GP]

It's not clear to me what is confusing. Is it not explained in what you have quoted?

I never said Haug was "the Architect". I said he was "one of them".

I don't think Haug was one of the architects of Mercs PU dominance. As I said, if you watch any of his interviews, the guy was literally Stuttgarts go between and he had no qualms being fourth fiddle to Mario Illien, Paul Morgan, Andy Cowell, Ron Dennis and Ross Brawn.
What I credit him for was leading Mercedes into F1, Supplying McLaren with free engines and 70m a season, and then push Stuttgart into buying Brawn after Spygate. I also credit him for being a great guy and communicator that was a brilliant ambassador for Merc. None of these has anything to do with Mercedes PU dominance, as it specifically relates to technicalities and structures way beyond what Haug would be effective at, because it literally wasn't his job to structure, design or source the right staff.

But you do you.

Norbert Haug was the vice president of Mercedes Motorsport and eventually the head. There are many people who do not directly engineer anything, who are instrumental in greasing the wheels of what does happen which includes returning with Sauber, Mclaren, Mercedes returning as their own factory team, and committing to the new engine regulations as a result when they could have left instead, like BMW, Toyota, and Honda. Anyone who is anywhere in the chain of command is a part of what enables success like 2014.