2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Just_a_fan]

If Haug's name was Andy Cowell, sure.
Haug, a great guy(met twice) and seen him drift his R107....would be the first to admit he was not the architect of Mercs PU dominance. He was the guy that shielded the team and reported back under the old model. His head had to roll according to that method.
Exactly why Zetsche shifted away from that into the autonomous AMG model.

I never said Haug was "the Architect". I said he was "one of them". Norbert Haug's association with Mercedes motorsport operations predates Andy Cowell by a few decades... He was generally the "all things to do with Mercedes in motorsport" guy. Cowell may have directly led Brixworth, but there are levels above that enable things like this. That's why I name Haug as part of their success. He's the guy that had to fall on a knife so others could run.

Is Toto the next Haug if things don't improve? Accountability and moral responsibility is the key for organizational excellence. Toto is also part owner and the head of the team. Will he keep his stakes if he has to leave the team leader role?

What "moral responsibility"?

As for accountability, yes, he is accountable. Just as Horner was accountable for several years where his team couldn't compete against the dominant Mercedes (or even against Ferrari). Or is that somehow different? Was Horner's position at stake during the "Mercedes Years"? Should it have been?

[denyall]

People really want to see the Mercedes world burn. So much of what is published and said has no bearing in reality. Toto fired? JA fired? HAM to Ferrari? Merc leaving F1? I could go on and on... Every year we have some variety but it all boils down to "what Mercedes shake up will get the most clicks"

Best not to debate, can't be a reasonable discussion when the topic is "Will Mercedes leave F1 now that they are 2nd best team?"

[Just_a_fan]

People really want to see the Mercedes world burn.

I think it's because they fear a Merc resurgence and what it might mean for RB's and Max's dominance.

[denyall]

People really want to see the Mercedes world burn.

I think it's because they fear a Merc resurgence and what it might mean for RB's and Max's dominance.

One can hope

[chrisc90]

People really want to see the Mercedes world burn.

I think it's because they fear a Merc resurgence and what it might mean for RB's and Max's dominance.

One can hope

Very unlikely for a lot of fans really.

I think most people would want 2021-escque style battles between drivers and teams. Pure dominance from a single team or driver is a little 'dis-heartening' for most.

[denyall]

I think it's because they fear a Merc resurgence and what it might mean for RB's and Max's dominance.

One can hope

Very unlikely for a lot of fans really.

I think most people would want 2021-escque style battles between drivers and teams. Pure dominance from a single team or driver is a little 'dis-heartening' for most.

Hence hope of a Merc resurgence to challenge the dominance of RB. I'll take a return of Merc dominance all day, but realistically being able to challenge for wins is what I think all Merc fans want.

[cplchanb]

People really want to see the Mercedes world burn. So much of what is published and said has no bearing in reality. Toto fired? JA fired? HAM to Ferrari? Merc leaving F1? I could go on and on... Every year we have some variety but it all boils down to "what Mercedes shake up will get the most clicks"

Best not to debate, can't be a reasonable discussion when the topic is "Will Mercedes leave F1 now that they are 2nd best team?"

the same people were also putting out RB quit threats because merc was winning back in 2015.

[Cs98]

I never said Haug was "the Architect". I said he was "one of them". Norbert Haug's association with Mercedes motorsport operations predates Andy Cowell by a few decades... He was generally the "all things to do with Mercedes in motorsport" guy. Cowell may have directly led Brixworth, but there are levels above that enable things like this. That's why I name Haug as part of their success. He's the guy that had to fall on a knife so others could run.

Is Toto the next Haug if things don't improve? Accountability and moral responsibility is the key for organizational excellence. Toto is also part owner and the head of the team. Will he keep his stakes if he has to leave the team leader role?

What "moral responsibility"?

As for accountability, yes, he is accountable. Just as Horner was accountable for several years where his team couldn't compete against the dominant Mercedes (or even against Ferrari). Or is that somehow different? Was Horner's position at stake during the "Mercedes Years"? Should it have been?

Yup, very different. Toto's team is in complete control of its own destiny. They build all aspects of the car. RB was in a different boat.

[Just_a_fan]

Is Toto the next Haug if things don't improve? Accountability and moral responsibility is the key for organizational excellence. Toto is also part owner and the head of the team. Will he keep his stakes if he has to leave the team leader role?

What "moral responsibility"?

As for accountability, yes, he is accountable. Just as Horner was accountable for several years where his team couldn't compete against the dominant Mercedes (or even against Ferrari). Or is that somehow different? Was Horner's position at stake during the "Mercedes Years"? Should it have been?

Yup, very different. Toto's team is in complete control of its own destiny. They build all aspects of the car. RB was in a different boat.

But Horner has led the team since its inception. He's been involved in the choices made that included buying engines rather than investing in producing their own (until now, of course). That makes him just as accountable as Toto.

[Willy]

I never said Haug was "the Architect". I said he was "one of them". Norbert Haug's association with Mercedes motorsport operations predates Andy Cowell by a few decades... He was generally the "all things to do with Mercedes in motorsport" guy. Cowell may have directly led Brixworth, but there are levels above that enable things like this. That's why I name Haug as part of their success. He's the guy that had to fall on a knife so others could run.

Is Toto the next Haug if things don't improve? Accountability and moral responsibility is the key for organizational excellence. Toto is also part owner and the head of the team. Will he keep his stakes if he has to leave the team leader role?

What "moral responsibility"?

As for accountability, yes, he is accountable. Just as Horner was accountable for several years where his team couldn't compete against the dominant Mercedes (or even against Ferrari). Or is that somehow different? Was Horner's position at stake during the "Mercedes Years"? Should it have been?

I was surprised Red Bull didn't fold after a few years of humiliation. Being a drinks company, they had nothing much to gain. I guess if it was not for Dietrich, probably they would have and so was Horner. I have the same take on Horner. He should have let someone else take over and drive. He gets some benefit of doubt because they were handicapped with lack of a matching power unit as their chassis was always hailed as one if the best along with pit crew and strategy. A a team principal he is responsible for everything, all the mess and the success. So should Toto be, but currently there is nothing to credit him.

[Henri]

The new front wing has helped in slow speed Hungary should be hood for merc... McLaren have made a big jump in highspeed corners faster than redbull

I think Mclaren are strong in slow corners too. Someone posted a lap trace in the ferrari thread, and I think the mclaren had higher speeds after braking ( the valley in the graph) than Ferrari consistently. And the Ferrari is known to be good at low speed, So I do not think this MCL60 car has any weaknesses now. It's just not as good as a redbull.

This diagram above is showing Mvclaren stronger than Ferrari everywhere, So I think Lando could threaten for pole.
I do not know where this will put mercedes, but their customer teams have been their biggest rivals this year ironically.

McLaren made a impressive jump with upgrades.. Mercedes need to look at that

[Willy]

Having denied that cost cap is not a barrier, Toto (and Fred) now accept it's a barrier to close the gap to Red Bull. This again emboldens the previous allegations against them by smaller teams that they simply used to throw money at problems that helped solve them, which smaller teams couldn't. That is now hampered with cost cap.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... /10497116/

Mercedes team boss Toto Wolff added: “I share Fred's opinion. The cost cap is a real constraint now. Because you cannot just go for a B-spec car.

“Lewis [Hamilton] and George [Russell] have been pretty vocal about what they would want to change in the car and that's simply not possible because we are lacking the financial corridor. And that's why we're looking very much at next year to change these things.”

While changes are limited in the current season, there is more scope to be bolder with revisions for 2024 as the cost cap figures will reset.

[georgekyr]

Even Toto admitted what we all see. If we take Max out of the equation positions 2 to 9 are less than 0.2 s apart. And this is the success of the cost cap.
https://www.sportskeeda.com/f1/news-ign ... toto-wolff

We have rumors that 3 teams have breached the cost cap rules last year, we need to wait and see who these teams are and what the penalties will be.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/f1-rumour ... -breaches/

And it has always been true that the teams with the money threw bucketloads of it to have upgraded cars able to challenge for the win again before the cap and now need to bootstrap, which is a new reality for them.

Also, it is not just about Red Bull and the rest copying everything. The water-slides that came into being by Alpine, copied most successfully by Aston Martin, now find their way in Red Bull.


We are seeing the teams converging. Also the photos from Monaco (both by Red Bull and Merc) have given clear help to the rest of the grid in terms of innovative floors. Focus is now on the suspension as all the pieces fall into place. If RB is part of the 3 teams breaching the rules, I would guess that they will get a much bigger penalty and the two teams remaining leave at least 2 more contenders to catch up or even go beyond next year. What will be a bad outcome would be that e.g., Merc, Aston and Ferrari get penalties...then until the new rules, no interest will remain with RB dominating hard.

[CHT]

With budget cap and restrictions on engine development, what are the chances of Merc introducing a brand-new car in 2024 and being ready to compete for wins from the onset?

[Stu]

Most of this post (^^@georgekyr post, above^^) is off topic for this thread, budget cap breach (potential) and car comparison threads are where the rest should be discussed