2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[ValeVida46]

But Horner has led the team since its inception. He's been involved in the choices made that included buying engines rather than investing in producing their own (until now, of course). That makes him just as accountable as Toto.

100% this.

Horner could've done this 15 years ago with Cosworth, but opted to remain a customer.
Instead are led to believe that anyone near chain of command should take credit for that what is not in their orbit of expertise.
Take Newey out of Red Bull and we'll see how Horner fares.

[Just_a_fan]

A a team principal he is responsible for everything, all the mess and the success. So should Toto be, but currently there is nothing to credit him.

Well, several back-to-back titles is a lot of credit in the bank. Unless you're Mercedes, it seems, who should fire people straight away.

[chrisc90]

Take Newey out of Red Bull and we'll see how Horner fares.

You could say the same about every team though. Take James Allinson out of Merc and see where toto got to.

Team principal is just a small cog in the gearbox of people within the team.

[Farnborough]

Take Newey out of Red Bull and we'll see how Horner fares.

You could say the same about every team though. Take James Allinson out of Merc and see where toto got to.

Team principal is just a small cog in the gearbox of people within the team.

It's an interesting view in the opposite direction, you should be able to take the manager out of circulation and the team performance should continue IF the right people have been employed and empowered by that manager.

The management saying " always employ someone that can do that job better than you can" pays dividend at all levels of skill required to run an operation.

[chrisc90]

Exactly.

When making big decisions, for example the reason to stay with a zero pod concept or go more conventional method, there will be a small army of design engineers working away coming up with drawings, They report back to the design leader/manager who ultimately feeds back information on the pros and cons of each design to their superiors and the team principles.
I imagine it’ll be a mostly joint decision to what concept or design is gone with (at a higher level such as PIDs/no pods - not just a front wing flap change). If it’s a equal decision I imagine the team principle will be the one pulling the trigger on a big decision concept change

[ValeVida46]

Take Newey out of Red Bull and we'll see how Horner fares.

You could say the same about every team though. Take James Allinson out of Merc and see where toto got to.

Team principal is just a small cog in the gearbox of people within the team.

Absolutely.

Keeping a steady ship and letting those who are great at doing what they do, do those things.
Simple management. A great example of a person just letting the team get on with it was Zidane. 3 European cup titles successively for Los Merengues. In no way remotely an architect of anything. Famously did very very little tactically, and players often set up differently to how he instructed. Still has a better record than Pep or Jose having managed 50% less games.

I don't credit Toto for any of their championship winning cars either. He wouldn't know where to start on a CFD programme or wind tunnel rig. I credit those cars to Aldo Costa and Allison and Andy Cowell.
In the same way I wouldn't dream of crediting Horner with Newey's cars.

Suits getting credit for being "architects" of success or PU dominance is fatally flawed.
Management can be replaced easily and with minimal fuss. Engineering talent like Newey and Aldo Costa etc, yea good luck with that

[organic]

Whaaat?

Surely you should give a lot of plaudits and credit to TP and shareholder who had a large influence over the whole organization over the period 2014-21 for the success. Without AD lewis would be 8x WDC retired and Toto would probably too and everyone here would be singing his praises.

Reality went differently but doesn't change that the ability to keep morale up and keep things fresh, enjoyable enough for their key employees not to be poached was fundamental for the amazing performance consistently that was achieved. And the team only really improved as the hybrid era went on, producing a fantastic car in 2020 which was the last stable year of the regs.

Another thing that is important for staying dominant: identifying and ensuring you keep the key people who are crucial to the success of the team. Surely that sort of thing would be carried out in large part by a figure like Toto? He's the one that inspires confidence in the technical heads and everyone buys into the same vision. It's just so important in a team environment. Motivation delivers performance

I'm not saying management is less replaceable than the great engineering talents, as I think it isn't. But I feel credit should be given where credit is due

[Willy]

Horner could've done this 15 years ago with Cosworth, but opted to remain a customer.
Instead are led to believe that anyone near chain of command should take credit for that what is not in their orbit of expertise.
Take Newey out of Red Bull and we'll see how Horner fares.

Red Bull are a drinks company. There was and is zero incentive in becoming an engine manufacturer. Every racing series is primarily a ground to showcase automobile engineering excellence for automobile companies and take that to create buzz around their sales. As a sideshow, a lot of racing enthusiasts came in to participate by buying components. Red Bull's is probably a weird case of such a group having had a lot of championships, in that sense. Akin to Williams of 80s and 90s. Their incredible success, capability as a racing organization and frustrations of being unable to find a competitive engine has forced them to now become a manufacturer. Remaining a customer made perfect sense for someone like Red Bull if they would have got an engine on par with others. Mercedes hybrid PUs changed the whole game with a manufacturer gaining so much of advantage over others manufacturers.

Taking Newey out or Max out would have the same impact on the team. Horner can't go and build cars and also drive them. Neither did Toto created cars, PUs and drove them on track when they won the championships. F1 is a team sport and as such requires multiple elements to click in unison.

[Willy]

Whaaat?

Surely you should give some credit to TP and shareholder who had a large influence over the whole organization over the period 2014-21 for the success. Without AD lewis would be 8x WDC retired and Toto would probably too and everyone here would be singing his praises.

Reality went differently but doesn't change that the ability to keep morale up and keep things fresh, enjoyable enough for their key employees not to be poached.

That's another thing that is important for staying dominant. Identifying and ensuring you keep the key people who are crucial to the success of the team. Surely that sort of thing would be carried out in large part by a figure like Toto?

I'm not saying management is less replaceable than the great engineering talents, as I think it isn't. But I feel credit should be given where credit is due

Success can make a donkey look like a Tiger. Toto arrived on the ripe scene created by Brawn and the team. He kept things afloat while the advantage lasted. In such a strong situation, even some bad decisions and moves doesn't really show any significant impact. Paddy moved out as he didn't find an opportunity to grow further under Toto. DId that impact? There were many other attritions of no so notable names too. Even if Toto would have left, it wouldn't have impacted Mercedes at that point.

Promoting MIke Elliott, pushing him back, bringing back Allison doesn't necessarily point to a man who knows how to control and build things like Brawn did from 2010 to 2013. He is even more stupid to come over radio and keep apologizing for the bad car. The character of a strong leader is tested in adversity and now Toto has to prove that he is as capable as someone like Brawn in turning things around and that the success from 2014 to 2021 wasn't down to work done by his predecessor and enjoyed a lucky ride.

[ValeVida46]

Whaaat?

Toto is great at what he does, and he deserves credit for what he does. As is Horner. Attributing technical credits to administrative credit is what I'm against. Great managers struggle with average teams, and Average managers shine with great teams.
Veering a little off topic now.

Red Bull are a drinks company. There was and is zero incentive in becoming an engine manufacturer.

The exact same can be applied to them buying and owning an F1 team. Why not just sponsor one instead?
No, they wanted control.
And left engines to a supplier.

[Mosin123]

Whaaat?

Surely you should give some credit to TP and shareholder who had a large influence over the whole organization over the period 2014-21 for the success. Without AD lewis would be 8x WDC retired and Toto would probably too and everyone here would be singing his praises.

Reality went differently but doesn't change that the ability to keep morale up and keep things fresh, enjoyable enough for their key employees not to be poached.

That's another thing that is important for staying dominant. Identifying and ensuring you keep the key people who are crucial to the success of the team. Surely that sort of thing would be carried out in large part by a figure like Toto?

I'm not saying management is less replaceable than the great engineering talents, as I think it isn't. But I feel credit should be given where credit is due

Success can make a donkey look like a Tiger. Toto arrived on the ripe scene created by Brawn and the team. He kept things afloat while the advantage lasted. In such a strong situation, even some bad decisions and moves doesn't really show any significant impact. Paddy moved out as he didn't find an opportunity to grow further under Toto. DId that impact? There were many other attritions of no so notable names too. Even if Toto would have left, it wouldn't have impacted Mercedes at that point.

Promoting MIke Elliott, pushing him back, bringing back Allison doesn't necessarily point to a man who knows how to control and build things like Brawn did from 2010 to 2013. He is even more stupid to come over radio and keep apologizing for the bad car. The character of a strong leader is tested in adversity and now Toto has to prove that he is as capable as someone like Brawn in turning things around and that the success from 2014 to 2021 wasn't down to work done by his predecessor and enjoyed a lucky ride.

I dont think dropping from 1st to 3rd and back to 2nd ( So far ) as being an example of Merc being donkeys, what are you saying about the other 8 teams below Merc? was Neway and Horner donkeys before 21? Took Horner 8 years to bring Redbull back to winning. So if Toto is a donkey after just 2 years, what is Horners value?

[Cs98]

What "moral responsibility"?

As for accountability, yes, he is accountable. Just as Horner was accountable for several years where his team couldn't compete against the dominant Mercedes (or even against Ferrari). Or is that somehow different? Was Horner's position at stake during the "Mercedes Years"? Should it have been?

Yup, very different. Toto's team is in complete control of its own destiny. They build all aspects of the car. RB was in a different boat.

But Horner has led the team since its inception. He's been involved in the choices made that included buying engines rather than investing in producing their own (until now, of course). That makes him just as accountable as Toto.

Most certainly not. The decision to not build engines is above him. That's a multi hundred million dollar question for the owner of RB, not Horner. Toto has no such excuse. They are in prime position to be competitive, but they just aren't.

[chrisc90]

Yup, very different. Toto's team is in complete control of its own destiny. They build all aspects of the car. RB was in a different boat.

But Horner has led the team since its inception. He's been involved in the choices made that included buying engines rather than investing in producing their own (until now, of course). That makes him just as accountable as Toto.

Most certainly not. The decision to not build engines is above him. That's a multi hundred million dollar question for the owner of RB, not Horner. Toto has no such excuse. They are in prime position to be competitive, but they just aren't.

Does toto ask the other 66% shareholders their opinion too?

[ValeVida46]

Most certainly not. The decision to not build engines is above him. That's a hundred million dollar question for the owner of RB, not Horner.

It was always a consideration. As depicted here by the owner in 2010:

But we are on stand-by for an interesting partnership. And even the idea of developing our own engine, I think, is no longer so absurd

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/red- ... 26028.html


If team bosses are taking credit for what the techies do, but strategic decisions are left to the money men like Mateschitz, who are left uncredited to a large extent, perhaps the credit ought to go to the guys who write the cheques.
It would be wrong of course, but that emphasises my point.

[Cs98]

But Horner has led the team since its inception. He's been involved in the choices made that included buying engines rather than investing in producing their own (until now, of course). That makes him just as accountable as Toto.

Most certainly not. The decision to not build engines is above him. That's a multi hundred million dollar question for the owner of RB, not Horner. Toto has no such excuse. They are in prime position to be competitive, but they just aren't.

Does toto ask the other 66% shareholders their opinion too?

What would he need to ask them? They already have an operation with all the necessary resources to be competitive. State of the art factory and WT, check. Experienced engineers who have built winning cars, check. Their own state of the art engine operation with a competitive engine, check. Full funding and sponsorship, check. Competitive drivers, check.