2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[denyall]

If you disagree with the idea that Toto Wolf's job is at risk, then an on-topic response would be to discuss his positive contributions during this time and why that makes him the perfect man for this role going forward. Would you agree that this is sensible? Whether someone at a different team is fit for their own job belongs in that team's thread.

Fighting for Toto's job in the comments is a losing battle. As many have pointed out, calls for his head are in bad faith and often hypocritical. What's acceptable for some is forbidden for Toto. What's normal for other teams and TP is apparently unforgivable. There is no argument to be made here that will be met with a reasonable response because the people calling for his head don't actually care about the team at all except to watch it burn at the stake.

If you believe that one man can lead the team to first in the WCC and WDC every single year ad infinitum, I have a property in Atlantis to sell you.

But to stay on topic and answer your question, the fear of Darth Toto is strong and that's why I think he's perfect for TP.

The problem I see is framing a discussion by having winners and losers of that discussion. You are not responsible for winning, and you are not a loser either. You are someone who shared an opinion.

If people write comments which violate the forum rules, you may report that post. Otherwise, there's not really anything you can do if people generally write things which you may disagree with. That's how a forum is.

I meant fighting like in court before the Mercedes Board of Directors at Toto's trial not with other posters here.

I'd agree though, winning the hearts and minds of Toto's detractors on a fourm is a losing battle all day! You won't catch me singing the praises of he who shall not be named here.

[Willy]

Despite pages of arguments stating the recent success of Mercedes as the reason why Toto should continue, I still haven't read a credible quality required to pull a team back to the top again for a team principal under the current circumstances that Toto has. Comparing him to other team principals and other teams is not going to make him the ideal candidate for the argument sake to lead the team out of this slumber.

The circumstances under which Mercedes laid the foundation of their success and the subsequent continued success, have changed. Many that played a key role in building that success are gone and it has had a natural impact on the strength of the team. There were notable names like Aldo Costa, Bob Bell, Geoff Willis etc., whom Brawn hired and the engine chief Andy Cowell. There are also a lot of not so famous names have departed the team. It appears that the quality of succession has been quite poor. Then there is this issue of cost cap. Under these circumstances, does Toto has what it takes to rebuild by identifying the gaps, help manage the development under budget constricted atmosphere and get back to winning?

[denyall]

Despite pages of arguments stating the recent success of Mercedes as the reason why Toto should continue, I still haven't read a credible quality required to pull a team back to the top again for a team principal under the current circumstances that Toto has. Comparing him to other team principals and other teams is not going to make him the ideal candidate for the argument sake to lead the team out of this slumber.

The circumstances under which Mercedes laid the foundation of their success and the subsequent continued success, have changed. Many that played a key role in building that success are gone and it has had a natural impact on the strength of the team. There were notable names like Aldo Costa, Bob Bell, Geoff Willis etc., whom Brawn hired and the engine chief Andy Cowell. There are also a lot of not so famous names have departed the team. It appears that the quality of succession has been quite poor. Then there is this issue of cost cap. Under these circumstances, does Toto has what it takes to rebuild by identifying the gaps, help manage the development under budget constricted atmosphere and get back to winning?

Who HAS done these things? No one...

Who could replace Toto? No names given...

What could Toto do differently than what they are already doing to change course? No suggestions...

How could someone not named Toto overcome the challenges facing Mercedes? No solutions offered...

Who has led the team to 8 WCC and 7 WDC titles in what will go down in history as one of the longest and most convincing periods of dominance? Toto

Who has consistently put together a team that achieved these thing's? Toto

Who has expanded the brand of Mercedes and it's partners? Arguably the only reason to be in F1.. Toto

Who is a vocal and decisive leader of the team in and out of the paddock? Toto

When in his history of leading Mercedes has shown Toto can't overcome difficulty? Was it 21? 17 and 18? 16? 13?

As for the strategy and car for 22 and 23, What exactly is wrong with trying to be the best with a new and novel concept? Nothing except that it didn't work.

[AR3-GP]

Despite pages of arguments stating the recent success of Mercedes as the reason why Toto should continue, I still haven't read a credible quality required to pull a team back to the top again for a team principal under the current circumstances that Toto has. Comparing him to other team principals and other teams is not going to make him the ideal candidate for the argument sake to lead the team out of this slumber.

The circumstances under which Mercedes laid the foundation of their success and the subsequent continued success, have changed. Many that played a key role in building that success are gone and it has had a natural impact on the strength of the team. There were notable names like Aldo Costa, Bob Bell, Geoff Willis etc., whom Brawn hired and the engine chief Andy Cowell. There are also a lot of not so famous names have departed the team. It appears that the quality of succession has been quite poor. Then there is this issue of cost cap. Under these circumstances, does Toto has what it takes to rebuild by identifying the gaps, help manage the development under budget constricted atmosphere and get back to winning?

Who HAS done these things? No one...

Who could replace Toto? No names given...

What could Toto do differently than what they are already doing to change course? No suggestions...

How could someone not named Toto overcome the challenges facing Mercedes? No solutions offered...

Who has led the team to 8 WCC and 7 WDC titles in what will go down in history as one of the longest and most convincing periods of dominance? Toto

Who has consistently put together a team that achieved these thing's? Toto

Who has expanded the brand of Mercedes and it's partners? Arguably the only reason to be in F1.. Toto

Who is a vocal and decisive leader of the team in and out of the paddock? Toto

When in his history of leading Mercedes has shown Toto can't overcome difficulty? Was it 21? 17 and 18? 16? 13?

As for the strategy and car for 22 and 23, What exactly is wrong with trying to be the best with a new and novel concept? Nothing except that it didn't work.

All good points. It's nice to see that there is an answer to this question that highlights what someone thinks are Toto's strengths.

I don't actually think the jury needs to be out for Toto so soon. I'd say if they are not fighting for a championship in '25, then he'll probably just step down on his own.

There were good point raised about his succession planning however. We will see how good it is. Even he is supposed to have someone to replace himself. James Vowles has left and there are rumors that someone else might be off to Ferrari.

[Willy]

Despite pages of arguments stating the recent success of Mercedes as the reason why Toto should continue, I still haven't read a credible quality required to pull a team back to the top again for a team principal under the current circumstances that Toto has. Comparing him to other team principals and other teams is not going to make him the ideal candidate for the argument sake to lead the team out of this slumber.

The circumstances under which Mercedes laid the foundation of their success and the subsequent continued success, have changed. Many that played a key role in building that success are gone and it has had a natural impact on the strength of the team. There were notable names like Aldo Costa, Bob Bell, Geoff Willis etc., whom Brawn hired and the engine chief Andy Cowell. There are also a lot of not so famous names have departed the team. It appears that the quality of succession has been quite poor. Then there is this issue of cost cap. Under these circumstances, does Toto has what it takes to rebuild by identifying the gaps, help manage the development under budget constricted atmosphere and get back to winning?

Who HAS done these things? No one...

Who could replace Toto? No names given...

What could Toto do differently than what they are already doing to change course? No suggestions...

How could someone not named Toto overcome the challenges facing Mercedes? No solutions offered...

Who has led the team to 8 WCC and 7 WDC titles in what will go down in history as one of the longest and most convincing periods of dominance? Toto

Who has consistently put together a team that achieved these thing's? Toto

Who has expanded the brand of Mercedes and it's partners? Arguably the only reason to be in F1.. Toto

Who is a vocal and decisive leader of the team in and out of the paddock? Toto

When in his history of leading Mercedes has shown Toto can't overcome difficulty? Was it 21? 17 and 18? 16? 13?

As for the strategy and car for 22 and 23, What exactly is wrong with trying to be the best with a new and novel concept? Nothing except that it didn't work.

Discussion going back to same point I highlighted as a problem. Quoting Toto's joy ride for 8 years. The right discussion is, what qualities does Toto possess that makes him the right man for pulling Mercedes out of current slumber. Can we cut down the noise please?

[AR3-GP]

Despite pages of arguments stating the recent success of Mercedes as the reason why Toto should continue, I still haven't read a credible quality required to pull a team back to the top again for a team principal under the current circumstances that Toto has. Comparing him to other team principals and other teams is not going to make him the ideal candidate for the argument sake to lead the team out of this slumber.

The circumstances under which Mercedes laid the foundation of their success and the subsequent continued success, have changed. Many that played a key role in building that success are gone and it has had a natural impact on the strength of the team. There were notable names like Aldo Costa, Bob Bell, Geoff Willis etc., whom Brawn hired and the engine chief Andy Cowell. There are also a lot of not so famous names have departed the team. It appears that the quality of succession has been quite poor. Then there is this issue of cost cap. Under these circumstances, does Toto has what it takes to rebuild by identifying the gaps, help manage the development under budget constricted atmosphere and get back to winning?

Who HAS done these things? No one...

Who could replace Toto? No names given...

What could Toto do differently than what they are already doing to change course? No suggestions...

How could someone not named Toto overcome the challenges facing Mercedes? No solutions offered...

Who has led the team to 8 WCC and 7 WDC titles in what will go down in history as one of the longest and most convincing periods of dominance? Toto

Who has consistently put together a team that achieved these thing's? Toto

Who has expanded the brand of Mercedes and it's partners? Arguably the only reason to be in F1.. Toto

Who is a vocal and decisive leader of the team in and out of the paddock? Toto

When in his history of leading Mercedes has shown Toto can't overcome difficulty? Was it 21? 17 and 18? 16? 13?

As for the strategy and car for 22 and 23, What exactly is wrong with trying to be the best with a new and novel concept? Nothing except that it didn't work.

Discussion going back to same point I highlighted as a problem. Quoting Toto's joy ride for 8 years. The right discussion is, what qualities does Toto possess that makes him the right man for pulling Mercedes out of current slumber. Can we cut down the noise please?

I think some of it is addressed in that post. The latter bits at least seem like the appropriate response.

Toto is a 33% shareholder. He put his money where his mouth is.

He's extremely political. TD39...etc. In theory, another regs change (the right one this time...) could actually bring Mercedes right into the fold.

He also shelters his drivers from criticism. A useful quality for maintaining morale.

[Willy]

Who HAS done these things? No one...

Who could replace Toto? No names given...

What could Toto do differently than what they are already doing to change course? No suggestions...

How could someone not named Toto overcome the challenges facing Mercedes? No solutions offered...

Who has led the team to 8 WCC and 7 WDC titles in what will go down in history as one of the longest and most convincing periods of dominance? Toto

Who has consistently put together a team that achieved these thing's? Toto

Who has expanded the brand of Mercedes and it's partners? Arguably the only reason to be in F1.. Toto

Who is a vocal and decisive leader of the team in and out of the paddock? Toto

When in his history of leading Mercedes has shown Toto can't overcome difficulty? Was it 21? 17 and 18? 16? 13?

As for the strategy and car for 22 and 23, What exactly is wrong with trying to be the best with a new and novel concept? Nothing except that it didn't work.

Discussion going back to same point I highlighted as a problem. Quoting Toto's joy ride for 8 years. The right discussion is, what qualities does Toto possess that makes him the right man for pulling Mercedes out of current slumber. Can we cut down the noise please?

I think some of it is addressed in that post. The latter bits at least seem like the appropriate response.

Toto is a 33% shareholder. He put his money where his mouth is.

He's extremely political. TD39...etc. In theory, another regs change (the right one this time...) could actually bring Mercedes right into the fold.

He also shelters his drivers from criticism. A useful quality for maintaining morale.

I don't that post answers anything. Being political or making noise in paddock helps his people at factory to make the car go faster?

I guess he is referring to 2013 about this?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formu ... trust.html

[denyall]

Despite pages of arguments stating the recent success of Mercedes as the reason why Toto should continue, I still haven't read a credible quality required to pull a team back to the top again for a team principal under the current circumstances that Toto has. Comparing him to other team principals and other teams is not going to make him the ideal candidate for the argument sake to lead the team out of this slumber.

The circumstances under which Mercedes laid the foundation of their success and the subsequent continued success, have changed. Many that played a key role in building that success are gone and it has had a natural impact on the strength of the team. There were notable names like Aldo Costa, Bob Bell, Geoff Willis etc., whom Brawn hired and the engine chief Andy Cowell. There are also a lot of not so famous names have departed the team. It appears that the quality of succession has been quite poor. Then there is this issue of cost cap. Under these circumstances, does Toto has what it takes to rebuild by identifying the gaps, help manage the development under budget constricted atmosphere and get back to winning?

Who HAS done these things? No one...

Who could replace Toto? No names given...

What could Toto do differently than what they are already doing to change course? No suggestions...

How could someone not named Toto overcome the challenges facing Mercedes? No solutions offered...

Who has led the team to 8 WCC and 7 WDC titles in what will go down in history as one of the longest and most convincing periods of dominance? Toto

Who has consistently put together a team that achieved these thing's? Toto

Who has expanded the brand of Mercedes and it's partners? Arguably the only reason to be in F1.. Toto

Who is a vocal and decisive leader of the team in and out of the paddock? Toto

When in his history of leading Mercedes has shown Toto can't overcome difficulty? Was it 21? 17 and 18? 16? 13?

As for the strategy and car for 22 and 23, What exactly is wrong with trying to be the best with a new and novel concept? Nothing except that it didn't work.

Discussion going back to same point I highlighted as a problem. Quoting Toto's joy ride for 8 years. The right discussion is, what qualities does Toto possess that makes him the right man for pulling Mercedes out of current slumber. Can we cut down the noise please?

Toto posseses the qualities I mentioned as well as demonstrated success in the role.

My beef with your question is that it asks what's so good about Toto after I, along with a lot of others, have said a bunch about what makes Toto valuable as a TP.

Any successor at Mercedes would be measured against the qualities of Toto or he who shall not be named, as they have been the two most successful TP for the past 14 years. I think if Toto were to leave, the role would be filled by one of the current TP on the grid or an heir apparent at Merc. Since none of those people have shown that they can beat RB either, calling for Toto's removal because he hasn't beaten RB is silly.

Firing someone because you feel like doing something is bad management and really bad for morale. In F1, taking risks is the only way to win. Fostering a culture of punishment for ideas that showed promise but ultimately we're not as good as someone else's risky ideas is not Mercedes DNA.

To replace Toto with someone worse or inexperienced would only increase the mountain that Mercedes must climb to win again. That is why people are so energetic about him leaving.

[Willy]

Who HAS done these things? No one...

Who could replace Toto? No names given...

What could Toto do differently than what they are already doing to change course? No suggestions...

How could someone not named Toto overcome the challenges facing Mercedes? No solutions offered...

Who has led the team to 8 WCC and 7 WDC titles in what will go down in history as one of the longest and most convincing periods of dominance? Toto

Who has consistently put together a team that achieved these thing's? Toto

Who has expanded the brand of Mercedes and it's partners? Arguably the only reason to be in F1.. Toto

Who is a vocal and decisive leader of the team in and out of the paddock? Toto

When in his history of leading Mercedes has shown Toto can't overcome difficulty? Was it 21? 17 and 18? 16? 13?

As for the strategy and car for 22 and 23, What exactly is wrong with trying to be the best with a new and novel concept? Nothing except that it didn't work.

Discussion going back to same point I highlighted as a problem. Quoting Toto's joy ride for 8 years. The right discussion is, what qualities does Toto possess that makes him the right man for pulling Mercedes out of current slumber. Can we cut down the noise please?

Toto posseses the qualities I mentioned as well as demonstrated success in the role.

My beef with your question is that it asks what's so good about Toto after I, along with a lot of others, have said a bunch about what makes Toto valuable as a TP.

Any successor at Mercedes would be measured against the qualities of Toto or he who shall not be named, as they have been the two most successful TP for the past 14 years. I think if Toto were to leave, the role would be filled by one of the current TP on the grid or an heir apparent at Merc. Since none of those people have shown that they can beat RB either, calling for Toto's removal because he hasn't beaten RB is silly.

Firing someone because you feel like doing something is bad management and really bad for morale. In F1, taking risks is the only way to win. Fostering a culture of punishment for ideas that showed promise but ultimately we're not as good as someone else's risky ideas is not Mercedes DNA.

To replace Toto with someone worse or inexperienced would only increase the mountain that Mercedes must climb to win again. That is why people are so energetic about him leaving.

Fearing a change for the lack of understanding of successors and continuing with mediocrity isn't the way for succeeding in businesses. One should disassociate from looking at everyone that represents a contrasting view as a hater of the team. That's too broad a brush to use and sometimes it seems like a losing man's ultimate tool to punch in a conversation.

As soon as the pressure mounted, Toto was quick to replace Elliott with Allison. Why not Mercedes leadership does the same to Toto? Elliott was the chief aerodynamicist of all the winning cars at Mercedes! Does Toto's action shows that? Is that how he supports somone he chose to promote? He publicly calls the car as crap, bad and all that. Does he understand how it affects the psychology of people back at factory?

[denyall]

Discussion going back to same point I highlighted as a problem. Quoting Toto's joy ride for 8 years. The right discussion is, what qualities does Toto possess that makes him the right man for pulling Mercedes out of current slumber. Can we cut down the noise please?

Toto posseses the qualities I mentioned as well as demonstrated success in the role.

My beef with your question is that it asks what's so good about Toto after I, along with a lot of others, have said a bunch about what makes Toto valuable as a TP.

Any successor at Mercedes would be measured against the qualities of Toto or he who shall not be named, as they have been the two most successful TP for the past 14 years. I think if Toto were to leave, the role would be filled by one of the current TP on the grid or an heir apparent at Merc. Since none of those people have shown that they can beat RB either, calling for Toto's removal because he hasn't beaten RB is silly.

Firing someone because you feel like doing something is bad management and really bad for morale. In F1, taking risks is the only way to win. Fostering a culture of punishment for ideas that showed promise but ultimately we're not as good as someone else's risky ideas is not Mercedes DNA.

To replace Toto with someone worse or inexperienced would only increase the mountain that Mercedes must climb to win again. That is why people are so energetic about him leaving.

Fearing a change for the lack of understanding of successors and continuing with mediocrity isn't the way for succeeding in businesses. One should disassociate from looking at everyone that represents a contrasting view as a hater of the team. That's too broad a brush to use and sometimes it seems like a losing man's ultimate tool to punch in a conversation.

As soon as the pressure mounted, Toto was quick to replace Elliott with Allison. Why not Mercedes leadership does the same to Toto? Elliott was the chief aerodynamicist of all the winning cars at Mercedes! Does Toto's action shows that? Is that how he supports somone he chose to promote?

Calling Toto mediocre is a bit much...

Replacing a known experienced and proven leader with an unknown is not sound business strategy either. Context matters for this point in the discussion. Hanging on to the glory days is just as bad as feel good firing. Toto has not shown that he can't cut it anymore and it would take a significant screw up to be at risk.

As for Elliot, Maybe he is a better resource for the team as an engineer rather than a manager? Maybe he's happier, maybe he asked to go back? We dont know, but it isn't the first time someone took a promotion and wasn't cut out for it. Can't win then all.

As I think about it, sometimes managers have to make a change for the better of the company or team or organization. Sometimes at the expense of admitting they made a mistake. It's actually a rare these days, as pride and ego tend to dominate.

I trust in Toto. I'll leave it at that.

[Willy]

Toto posseses the qualities I mentioned as well as demonstrated success in the role.

My beef with your question is that it asks what's so good about Toto after I, along with a lot of others, have said a bunch about what makes Toto valuable as a TP.

Any successor at Mercedes would be measured against the qualities of Toto or he who shall not be named, as they have been the two most successful TP for the past 14 years. I think if Toto were to leave, the role would be filled by one of the current TP on the grid or an heir apparent at Merc. Since none of those people have shown that they can beat RB either, calling for Toto's removal because he hasn't beaten RB is silly.

Firing someone because you feel like doing something is bad management and really bad for morale. In F1, taking risks is the only way to win. Fostering a culture of punishment for ideas that showed promise but ultimately we're not as good as someone else's risky ideas is not Mercedes DNA.

To replace Toto with someone worse or inexperienced would only increase the mountain that Mercedes must climb to win again. That is why people are so energetic about him leaving.

Fearing a change for the lack of understanding of successors and continuing with mediocrity isn't the way for succeeding in businesses. One should disassociate from looking at everyone that represents a contrasting view as a hater of the team. That's too broad a brush to use and sometimes it seems like a losing man's ultimate tool to punch in a conversation.

As soon as the pressure mounted, Toto was quick to replace Elliott with Allison. Why not Mercedes leadership does the same to Toto? Elliott was the chief aerodynamicist of all the winning cars at Mercedes! Does Toto's action shows that? Is that how he supports somone he chose to promote?

Calling Toto mediocre is a bit much...

Replacing a known experienced and proven leader with an unknown is not sound business strategy either. Context matters for this point in the discussion. Hanging on to the glory days is just as bad as feel good firing. Toto has not shown that he can't cut it anymore and it would take a significant screw up to be at risk.

As for Elliot, Maybe he is a better resource for the team as an engineer rather than a manager? Maybe he's happier, maybe he asked to go back? We dont know, but it isn't the first time someone took a promotion and wasn't cut out for it. Can't win then all.

As I think about it, sometimes managers have to make a change for the better of the company or team or organization. Sometimes at the expense of admitting they made a mistake. It's actually a rare these days, as pride and ego tend to dominate.

I trust in Toto. I'll leave it at that.

That's exactly what Mercedes board should do.

[Stu]

One thing is certain from my view, they haven't got power output superiority now over the competitor teans to play with as existing for so many years.

Use of that "party mode" and "hammer time" at high output mode is long gone.

Reaching parity at least will have to be done with more subtle ingenuity, quite possible but a very different balance now.

They need to get their heads down and get on with it

As the only credible post in several pages of ----talking and spam-posts - quote-post,quote-post,quote-post,two line comment IS spamming the thread in my book! - consider this a reset of the AMG Mercedes Petronas 2023 TEAM thread.

Many posts will disappear from the last few pages, continuing to post in the same manner will result in warnings being issued. Play nicely, play the ball rather than the player, don’t post ‘angry’ - it never resolved anything.

[Cs98]

Replacing a known experienced and proven leader with an unknown is not sound business strategy either. Context matters for this point in the discussion. Hanging on to the glory days is just as bad as feel good firing. Toto has not shown that he can't cut it anymore and it would take a significant screw up to be at risk.

But that's exactly what Merc did when Ross Brawn left (was pushed out) and was replaced by Toto at the end of 2013. It ended up working out but it never would have happened if you reduced your succession planning to comparing resumes.

Toto has not shown that he can't cut it anymore and it would take a significant screw up to be at risk.

In your mind, how long can Merc be squarely outside the championship picture without Wolff being at risk? One more year? Two? Indefinitely? What qualifies as "significant screw up"?

[GCXX]

https://formu1a.uno/en/f1-news-ferrari- ... -mercedes/

Another departure of a top engineer which will hurt. And for Ferrari of course it’s a top signing who had insights in the latest projects.

[Just_a_fan]

Toto's job is only at risk in the minds of a few Red Bull types that have spent the last 18 months poking at Mercedes fans in the Mercedes threads and now, as it seems that Mercedes might be slowly finding their way, are calling for Toto's head. One must question the motives of those posters rather than spending time stooping to massage their fantasies.

The amount of low-level / subliminal trolling going on in here over the past year or so has been impressive. Sadly, it has been allowed to continue for far too long.