2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[djos]

Regarding what Lando says, that the car turns badly, that it tries to drive in a straight line: I already noted this earlier. You can see it on onboard. Everything is perfectly visible in the race of Austria and Britain, and especially in the slow turn 3, what is there, what is there. The McLaren chassis is inconvenient to turn, there is not enough grip on the front wheels. This is the same understeer. You can't say that about Red Bull, it turns the way Max wants, easily breaks the trajectory if he wants to.

Earlier, I already received a hat from some of you here, saying that Lando is playing down. No, when it's seen on the onboard, it's not what some here describe. Some people seem to fail to understand that the car has inherent chassis features that prevent Lando from extracting more speed.

In qualifying, it's almost unnoticeable, because the car is lighter, the balance is slightly different, the tires are fresh and give maximum grip, here the chassis falls into the optimal frame and Lando as a whole can at least get the maximum of what he wants. Of course, within reason. For example, as a standard driver-car, I put Max, simply because this bunch is the fastest and most stable, he is the most convenient guide. When Max wants to go into a V-shaped trajectory, he does so, and the car easily enters a slow turn. In Austria, whether in qualifying or in the race, he never changed the racing trajectory, he rode the fastest trajectory every time. The grip on Max's front wheels is just fantastic, the whole car revolves around the front wheels, it's impressive. Chassis McLaren is not capable of doing this in principle. Which led to the fact that in Austria Lando began to break the trajectory in turn 3 as the tires wore out over the course of the race.

So nice to see another forum member with a solid grasp on reality.

I’m sincerely hoping that with James Key gone, McLaren will finally address these issues. If they don’t, they will lose Lando and Oscar to other teams when their patience runs out.

[LionsHeart]

Regarding what Lando says, that the car turns badly, that it tries to drive in a straight line: I already noted this earlier. You can see it on onboard. Everything is perfectly visible in the race of Austria and Britain, and especially in the slow turn 3, what is there, what is there. The McLaren chassis is inconvenient to turn, there is not enough grip on the front wheels. This is the same understeer. You can't say that about Red Bull, it turns the way Max wants, easily breaks the trajectory if he wants to.

Earlier, I already received a hat from some of you here, saying that Lando is playing down. No, when it's seen on the onboard, it's not what some here describe. Some people seem to fail to understand that the car has inherent chassis features that prevent Lando from extracting more speed.

In qualifying, it's almost unnoticeable, because the car is lighter, the balance is slightly different, the tires are fresh and give maximum grip, here the chassis falls into the optimal frame and Lando as a whole can at least get the maximum of what he wants. Of course, within reason. For example, as a standard driver-car, I put Max, simply because this bunch is the fastest and most stable, he is the most convenient guide. When Max wants to go into a V-shaped trajectory, he does so, and the car easily enters a slow turn. In Austria, whether in qualifying or in the race, he never changed the racing trajectory, he rode the fastest trajectory every time. The grip on Max's front wheels is just fantastic, the whole car revolves around the front wheels, it's impressive. Chassis McLaren is not capable of doing this in principle. Which led to the fact that in Austria Lando began to break the trajectory in turn 3 as the tires wore out over the course of the race.

So nice to see another forum member with a solid grasp on reality.

I’m sincerely hoping that with James Key gone, McLaren will finally address these issues. If they don’t, they will lose Lando and Oscar to other teams when their patience runs out.

Yes, there is. I wouldn't want to lose Lando and Oscar. These guys have a natural talent for making the most of whatever technique they have at hand. I have a suggestion that these innate features are quite understandable: Fernando Alonso. He has a particular corner entry style and remember that Vandoorne could not go as fast as Alonso. I think in a few years in the team they redesigned the chassis to Alonso's preferences. Alonso has an unusual cornering technique. He likes a lot of rear-wheel hold, and compensates for understeer with a forceful quick turn of the steering wheel. He has been doing this since the beginning of his F1 career. Stoffel is far from being a slow driver, but he couldn't adjust to the car, just like Riccardo, could he? So my guess is Alonso brought these chassis habits, because Lando says that from the very beginning, therefore since 2019, these chassis features were already there and do not suit his driving style, which does not change the fact that he knows how to adapt well and squeeze out full performance.

Add more: Jenson Button and Sergio Perez also prefer easy understeer. With the departure of Hamilton from McLaren, the team rebuilt the chassis for their existing drivers. So the current problem has its roots in 10 years ago.

[djos]

Iirc, James key joined for 2018 which was the first year McLaren ran Renault and discovered that their chassis was actually not even close to being decent.

So they redesigned it from scratch for 2019 which was the year Lando joined. I don’t recall if Fernando was still there for 2019 or not.

My point being, I’m not sure if Fernando’s driving style was the primary influence, or finding out their chassis was poor regardless of the PU driving it.

[Stig14]

So nice to see another forum member with a solid grasp on reality.

Always a nice way to alienate those you are trying to have a conversation with.

For clarity, I think most people on here agree that the car isn't the easiest to drive on the grid and would love this to be fixed for future designs. This would definitely enable the drivers to have an easier life and to be able to extract more lap time during race weekends. What I'm saying is that I'd rather a tricky to drive but fast car (McLaren at the moment) than an easy to drive slow car (Alfa Romeo). It is obvious to say that we would like an easy-to-drive fast car (Red Bull) but that's clearly easier to say than to execute.

EDIT: that being said, Perez seems to be struggling with the Red Bull currently so perhaps that car isn't so easy to drive either

[LionsHeart]

So nice to see another forum member with a solid grasp on reality.

Always a nice way to alienate those you are trying to have a conversation with.

For clarity, I think most people on here agree that the car isn't the easiest to drive on the grid and would love this to be fixed for future designs. This would definitely enable the drivers to have an easier life and to be able to extract more lap time during race weekends. What I'm saying is that I'd rather a tricky to drive but fast car (McLaren at the moment) than an easy to drive slow car (Alfa Romeo). It is obvious to say that we would like an easy-to-drive fast car (Red Bull) but that's clearly easier to say than to execute.

EDIT: that being said, Perez seems to be struggling with the Red Bull currently so perhaps that car isn't so easy to drive either

In the hands of Max, she is obedient, she suits him. She does not suit Sergio, because he has other preferences. Considering that the Red Bull chassis keeps the tires well in the operating range and wears the tires little, then this is more likely the right chassis than the wrong one, which is difficult to manage. Sergio has no problems in the race, he just has no luck in qualifying. I agree, at this point in time it's probably better to have an imperfect fast car than a stable but slow Sauber one.

[Macafangrskg]

Regarding what Lando says, that the car turns badly, that it tries to drive in a straight line: I already noted this earlier. You can see it on onboard. Everything is perfectly visible in the race of Austria and Britain, and especially in the slow turn 3, what is there, what is there. The McLaren chassis is inconvenient to turn, there is not enough grip on the front wheels. This is the same understeer. You can't say that about Red Bull, it turns the way Max wants, easily breaks the trajectory if he wants to.

Earlier, I already received a hat from some of you here, saying that Lando is playing down. No, when it's seen on the onboard, it's not what some here describe. Some people seem to fail to understand that the car has inherent chassis features that prevent Lando from extracting more speed.

In qualifying, it's almost unnoticeable, because the car is lighter, the balance is slightly different, the tires are fresh and give maximum grip, here the chassis falls into the optimal frame and Lando as a whole can at least get the maximum of what he wants. Of course, within reason. For example, as a standard driver-car, I put Max, simply because this bunch is the fastest and most stable, he is the most convenient guide. When Max wants to go into a V-shaped trajectory, he does so, and the car easily enters a slow turn. In Austria, whether in qualifying or in the race, he never changed the racing trajectory, he rode the fastest trajectory every time. The grip on Max's front wheels is just fantastic, the whole car revolves around the front wheels, it's impressive. Chassis McLaren is not capable of doing this in principle. Which led to the fact that in Austria Lando began to break the trajectory in turn 3 as the tires wore out over the course of the race.

I agree so much with everything that you said. If you remember especially the last couple of years. As soon as we get to the final third of the race and we swap to softer choice of the tires we are flying. It is like a different car.In some case we grab also the fastest time for a couple of laps until RB switch to a fresh to regrab it. But that why it is interesting to wait for the Sunday race with high temps to see if our pace is getting better.If we don't destroy the tires and if possible try a softer compound

[djos]

So nice to see another forum member with a solid grasp on reality.

Always a nice way to alienate those you are trying to have a conversation with.

For clarity, I think most people on here agree that the car isn't the easiest to drive on the grid and would love this to be fixed for future designs. This would definitely enable the drivers to have an easier life and to be able to extract more lap time during race weekends. What I'm saying is that I'd rather a tricky to drive but fast car (McLaren at the moment) than an easy to drive slow car (Alfa Romeo). It is obvious to say that we would like an easy-to-drive fast car (Red Bull) but that's clearly easier to say than to execute.

EDIT: that being said, Perez seems to be struggling with the Red Bull currently so perhaps that car isn't so easy to drive either

Some of you guy's seem to think that just because Lando (and Oscar) can drive the McLaren fast that the tricky handling issue is overblown. Lando's latest comments clearly indicate that they are a major hindrance to the team processing to being a WDC/WCC contender.

The fact that Lando's manager has been seen having discussions with other teams should be a wake-up call for a lot of folk here to take off the rose-coloured glasses and be more realistic about what it takes to get back to the front.

Checo is not having trouble driving the car fast, he's having trouble keeping his head in the game. Daniel, who many here deride for not being able to drive the previous two McLaren's, can drive RB19 just fine.

[Stig14]

So nice to see another forum member with a solid grasp on reality.

Always a nice way to alienate those you are trying to have a conversation with.

For clarity, I think most people on here agree that the car isn't the easiest to drive on the grid and would love this to be fixed for future designs. This would definitely enable the drivers to have an easier life and to be able to extract more lap time during race weekends. What I'm saying is that I'd rather a tricky to drive but fast car (McLaren at the moment) than an easy to drive slow car (Alfa Romeo). It is obvious to say that we would like an easy-to-drive fast car (Red Bull) but that's clearly easier to say than to execute.

EDIT: that being said, Perez seems to be struggling with the Red Bull currently so perhaps that car isn't so easy to drive either

Some of you guy's seem to think that just because Lando (and Oscar) can drive the McLaren fast that the tricky handling issue is overblown. Lando's latest comments clearly indicate that they are a major hindrance to the team processing to being a WDC/WCC contender.

The fact that Lando's manager has been seen having discussions with other teams should be a wake-up call for a lot of folk here to take off the rose-coloured glasses and be more realistic about what it takes to get back to the front.

Checo is not having trouble driving the car fast, he's having trouble keeping his head in the game. Daniel, who many here deride for not being able to drive the previous two McLaren's, can drive RB19 just fine.

Did I say that Lando's comments were overblown? I've already agreed that making the car easier to drive will make the car faster.

All drivers managers talk to other teams on the paddock. It's standard practice and not something to panic about. The fact that Lando looks around and still seems McLaren to be the best place for his career should be reassuring, not concerning for me.

And you're basing Daniel's ability to drive the RB19 on a single in-season tyre test correct? Checo seems to suggest that the car changes in Monaco have made it trickier for him to drive and find the limit so are you not listening to the driver? https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/pere ... /10497917/

[djos]

Always a nice way to alienate those you are trying to have a conversation with.

For clarity, I think most people on here agree that the car isn't the easiest to drive on the grid and would love this to be fixed for future designs. This would definitely enable the drivers to have an easier life and to be able to extract more lap time during race weekends. What I'm saying is that I'd rather a tricky to drive but fast car (McLaren at the moment) than an easy to drive slow car (Alfa Romeo). It is obvious to say that we would like an easy-to-drive fast car (Red Bull) but that's clearly easier to say than to execute.

EDIT: that being said, Perez seems to be struggling with the Red Bull currently so perhaps that car isn't so easy to drive either

Some of you guy's seem to think that just because Lando (and Oscar) can drive the McLaren fast that the tricky handling issue is overblown. Lando's latest comments clearly indicate that they are a major hindrance to the team processing to being a WDC/WCC contender.

The fact that Lando's manager has been seen having discussions with other teams should be a wake-up call for a lot of folk here to take off the rose-coloured glasses and be more realistic about what it takes to get back to the front.

Checo is not having trouble driving the car fast, he's having trouble keeping his head in the game. Daniel, who many here deride for not being able to drive the previous two McLaren's, can drive RB19 just fine.

Did I say that Lando's comments were overblown? I've already agreed that making the car easier to drive will make the car faster.

All drivers managers talk to other teams on the paddock. It's standard practice and not something to panic about. The fact that Lando looks around and still seems McLaren to be the best place for his career should be reassuring, not concerning for me.

And you're basing Daniel's ability to drive the RB19 on a single in-season tyre test correct? Checo seems to suggest that the car changes in Monaco have made it trickier for him to drive and find the limit so are you not listening to the driver? https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/pere ... /10497917/

That wasnt directed at you specifically.

If you look at the statements from RBR, you'll see that Daniel's Sim work was on par with both Checo and Max prior to his tire test.

Checo is, and has always been, a fast driver - however he is very prone to coming undone mentally. One bad race for him will frequently compound into a string of bad races. You can see this pattern all the way back to his rookie season at McLaren.

[f1rules]

And its this inherent flaw that hopefully will get solved soon. With the arrival of Sanchez and Marshall two experts in car concepts and indepth knowledge on the subject can hopefully cast new light and ideas into the pool to resolve this "driveability" issue.

Surprisingly i was searching a bit about Marshall, as i seem to remember, that his background is more mechanical?, and then i found this video where Piere Wache talks about the departure and actually states that Marshalls main area the last couple of years was car concept? Thats a bit of a surprise, but great news as he will know in detail what makes the RB work so great mechanicly/aero. I just hope they defined the two roles clearly, they did so in their titles, still there seem to be some overlap between the two. But if they can cooperate without to much pride i see that as a genuine strength.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/vide ... 17273.html
Stellas comments on the matter
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/vide ... 17273.html

So why have we only heard our star driver (Lando) complaining about the same McLaren issue consistently for the past few years, and no other driver complaining about a specific issue with their car year after year?

Sorry mate, but as Lando says, (very diplomatically), "we’ve not really tackled that well". This is code for "nothing has changed" IMO.

As others have said, you'd rather have a fast car which has some quirks and requires the driver to adapt their style than a slow, benign car. This seems to be how the Alfa Romeo behaves this year - I recall seeing interviews earlier this year where Valterri was saying that the car feels nice to drive but is simply slow. I know which car I'd rather McLaren had though...

Tell that to Lando, he seems to disagree:

“But we have yet, over the last five years, [not] made that steady improvement in slow-speed handling and drivability. A bigger step would be improving how we drive the car, how easy it is to drive the car, rather than just adding 10 more points of [aerodynamic] load in slow speed, so to speak, because that’s only going to get us so far up the order. Red Bull have both.”

[djos]

And its this inherent flaw that hopefully will get solved soon. With the arrival of Sanchez and Marshall two experts in car concepts and indepth knowledge on the subject can hopefully cast new light and ideas into the pool to resolve this "driveability" issue.

Surprisingly i was searching a bit about Marshall, as i seem to remember, that his background is more mechanical?, and then i found this video where Piere Wache talks about the departure and actually states that Marshalls main area the last couple of years was car concept? Thats a bit of a surprise, but great news as he will know in detail what makes the RB work so great mechanicly/aero. I just hope they defined the two roles clearly, they did so in their titles, still there seem to be some overlap between the two. But if they can cooperate without to much pride i see that as a genuine strength.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/vide ... 17273.html

I really hope you are right! I'd love to see Lando and Oscar fighting for Poles and Podiums every race weekend!

[djos]

In more positive McLaren news, check out the epic new Solus GT setting the fastest time of the year at Goodwood the other day:



PS, the Papaya on it looks epic, the need to find a way to make the F1 car version look that good.

[CjC]

Why is there surprise that the car with its current update still handles like the pervious spec?
Both specifications have been designed and built by the same people with the same equipment.

As stated above Mclaren need fresh eyes, a different point of view or rival knowledge which all starts on the 1st of January 2024 using the new equipment.

We will just have to wait and see how good the car is in the coming seasons. After seeing the recent upturn in form gives me some confidence

[BMMR61]

It’s easy to claim that Red Bull have an easy handling style of car. Yes it’s a different characteristic to Mclarens but I’d contend it too is, and for some time has been something of a diva (to use Lewis’s words). Gasly is talented but really struggled with it, sometimes lapped by Max. Albon too had his struggles and I think the RBs have crudely speaking had the opposite situation - a pointy front end where managing the rears into corners is key. Perez on occasions found setups that suited his style but he finds it hard work. Of course the handling “sweet spot” is much more complex than getting to neutral handling, probably made more difficult with ground effect where sealing the airflow can be disrupted in transition to corners.

It is probably most concerning that Lando has become more outspoken and blunt in his criticisms this year. For sure the first couple of races would have been dispiriting. But the extraordinary performance gains at the last two races has been eye catching and McLaren are often talked about in admiring manner by other drivers, not so Lando. It makes me wonder if he has actually already done a secret deal for 2025 in spite of his contract. I don’t see his more recent criticisms as being constructive and conducive to getting more from the team. I think I’ve probably already speculated as much as I should and will keep my own opinions to myself on the driver situation. Realistically things should be feeling positive, not just on the last two results but the clear break made from the previous engineering team. Finally I’d say we should keep an even keel on expectations for Hungary. While I think the chat about poor low speed grip is overblown it may yet drop us to the bottom end of Q3. That qualifying, and the ability to look after tyre life will give us further clues about the real gains made by the new concept car.

EDIT - Maybe Lando has rethought some of his media venting, here he seems to have a lot more perspective.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... XT1gX.html

[djos]

It is probably most concerning that Lando has become more outspoken and blunt in his criticisms this year. For sure the first couple of races would have been dispiriting. But the extraordinary performance gains at the last two races has been eye catching and McLaren are often talked about in admiring manner by other drivers, not so Lando. It makes me wonder if he has actually already done a secret deal for 2025 in spite of his contract. I don’t see his more recent criticisms as being constructive and conducive to getting more from the team. I think I’ve probably already speculated as much as I should and will keep my own opinions to myself on the driver situation. Realistically things should be feeling positive, not just on the last two results but the clear break made from the previous engineering team. Finally I’d say we should keep an even keel on expectations for Hungary. While I think the chat about poor low speed grip is overblown it may yet drop us to the bottom end of Q3. That and the ability to look after tyre life will give us further clues about the real gains made by the new concept car.

Absolutely, he's been saying the same thing for 3 years now - I can't imagine he'd mention it at all if he wasn't growing frustrated that no progress has been made to improve the car.