BrawnGP

[bjpower]

anyone translate.
looks like a pretty insane setup.
maybe its normal - is this different to what we know about the rest of the case setup.
I always thought the injectors had there own "hole" into the chamber

That type of setup would be called direct injection and it is much more difficult to implement, especially at F1 rev levels

Also IIRC Direct Injection is banned for F1

I would assume that the video is simplified a lot.
or do they really just dump the fuel in 3cm above the trumpets of the air intake?

[outer_bongolia]

Wow...


PS. No problem natef1 :]

Can't believe they just tack on things like that.

It looks like Jenson tested those contraptions, running with and without them at least during FP2.

Without:
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/photos/popu ... po_161.jpg


With:
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/photos/popu ... po_165.jpg

[ISLAMATRON]

That type of setup would be called direct injection and it is much more difficult to implement, especially at F1 rev levels

Also IIRC Direct Injection is banned for F1

I would assume that the video is simplified a lot.
or do they really just dump the fuel in 3cm above the trumpets of the air intake?

yep, that is what they do, along with 99.9% of all other gasoline fueled road going cars these days.

[sinspawn1024]

That type of setup would be called direct injection and it is much more difficult to implement, especially at F1 rev levels

I would assume that the video is simplified a lot.
or do they really just dump the fuel in 3cm above the trumpets of the air intake?

yep, that is what they do, along with 99.9% of all other gasoline fueled road going cars these days.

Actually, most cars are port injected. The injector is inserted into a hole in the cylinder head and it squirts a little gasoline on the top of the intake valve(s) right before they open. Then when they open, the rapid velocity of the air going through the partially opened valve causes the gasoline to spray all around the combustion chamber and vaporize very quickly and give a very homogeneous intake charge.

F1 injectors, on the other hand, spray fuel in a shower over the intake trumpet, giving the fuel as much space and as much time to evaporate in the intake runner. Since evaporation cools things down, this has the added benefit of making the intake air colder and denser than ambient, resulting in more power per displacement. However, this benefit comes at the expense of accuracy. Since there is a delay between when the fuel is injected and when the fuel enters the chamber, rapid changes in rpm (i.e. during down-shifts) result in temporary air fuel mixtures that are too rich or too lean, making power output unpredictable. Furthermore, these systems can only work well at extremely high rpm. As a result, engines that use them tend to be "peaky" and have excellent top end power, but poor power distribution.

[timbo]

F1 injectors, on the other hand, spray fuel in a shower over the intake trumpet, giving the fuel as much space and as much time to evaporate in the intake runner. Since evaporation cools things down, this has the added benefit of making the intake air colder and denser than ambient, resulting in more power per displacement. However, this benefit comes at the expense of accuracy. Since there is a delay between when the fuel is injected and when the fuel enters the chamber, rapid changes in rpm (i.e. during down-shifts) result in temporary air fuel mixtures that are too rich or too lean, making power output unpredictable. Furthermore, these systems can only work well at extremely high rpm. As a result, engines that use them tend to be "peaky" and have excellent top end power, but poor power distribution.

=D>
Very good explanation and easy to grasp!

[tommylommykins]

Here's a youtube video demonstrating the setup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2iBbwocYZw

What's the engine connected to, BTW? Is there a gearbox? If not, why does it sound like it's changing gear? If there is one, why is it sounding like it's actually on the road? I guess the engineers must have spent a long time time programming the rate of fuel injection to get it to simulate how it goes on the road...

[ISLAMATRON]

Actually, most cars are port injected. The injector is inserted into a hole in the cylinder head and it squirts a little gasoline on the top of the intake valve(s) right before they open. Then when they open, the rapid velocity of the air going through the partially opened valve causes the gasoline to spray all around the combustion chamber and vaporize very quickly and give a very homogeneous intake charge.

F1 injectors, on the other hand, spray fuel in a shower over the intake trumpet, giving the fuel as much space and as much time to evaporate in the intake runner. Since evaporation cools things down, this has the added benefit of making the intake air colder and denser than ambient, resulting in more power per displacement. However, this benefit comes at the expense of accuracy. Since there is a delay between when the fuel is injected and when the fuel enters the chamber, rapid changes in rpm (i.e. during down-shifts) result in temporary air fuel mixtures that are too rich or too lean, making power output unpredictable. Furthermore, these systems can only work well at extremely high rpm. As a result, engines that use them tend to be "peaky" and have excellent top end power, but poor power distribution.

Port injection spays into the intake runner, not into the cylinder head... the main difference being that F1 engines have individual throttles for each cylinder, and that the entire airbox serves as the intake manifold, so spraying at the top of the intake trumpets gives it the more time needed to vaporize because of the higher revs of an F1 engine.

The intake runners in a regular car and the intake trumpets in an F1 engine serve the same function... the only difference is the placement of the throttle.

[bjpower]

nice one for the info lads!!!
how ye know all this stuff amazes me.

[testandu]

Hey guys someone have a good picture of brawngp top view? can be a acurate draw

thx

Alex

[sinspawn1024]

Port injection spays into the intake runner, not into the cylinder head... the main difference being that F1 engines have individual throttles for each cylinder, and that the entire airbox serves as the intake manifold, so spraying at the top of the intake trumpets gives it the more time needed to vaporize because of the higher revs of an F1 engine.

Yeah, most fuel injectors are connected to the intake runners, but usually this is for ease of packaging, not because of mode of operation... most injectors still spray into the intake port onto the surface of the valve (notable exceptions include several Ferrari engines, whose fuel injectors are mounted further up the intake runner and operate somewhat like a hybrid between shower injectors and port injectors)

The intake runners in a regular car and the intake trumpets in an F1 engine serve the same function... the only difference is the placement of the throttle.

Yeah, intake runners serve the same function in all cars... they use Helmholtz resonance to increase induction charge mass. And though most engines place the throttle before the plenum, there are several high performance engines that use ITBs just like F1 cars (BMW, Ferrari, and Mercedes all use throttles located right in the intake runners), but this is has no effect on the FI system. The throttles are located where they are to improve throttle response and decrease pumping losses.

If you can imagine a throttle being mounted right in the air ram, if the driver suddenly went from a wide open throttle to a nearly closed throttle, the engine would keep at high revvs because it would still have plenty of high pressure air in the airbox, leading to a delay in throttle response (alternatively, if the throttle opened, there'd be a delay between when the throttle opened and when the air hit the engine)

[sinspawn1024]

Here's a youtube video demonstrating the setup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2iBbwocYZw

What's the engine connected to, BTW? Is there a gearbox? If not, why does it sound like it's changing gear? If there is one, why is it sounding like it's actually on the road? I guess the engineers must have spent a long time time programming the rate of fuel injection to get it to simulate how it goes on the road...

That engine isn't attached to a gearbox. It's attached to a dynamometer. As I'm sure you know, F1 cars have sensors that measure just about every minute detail of what is going on in the car at any given moment. It makes Las Vegas casino security seem down right sloppy. This telemetry data is stored for every track, and when they test an engine during development, they use throttle position and load data to simulate the engine going through every single track. Then they decide if they want to tweak anything... change the intake trumpet diameter/length, change the exhaust header configuration, etc. so that the engine provides the best compromise and performs as well as possible.

[ISLAMATRON]

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 2102.shtml

Wurz says that Honda actually designed 3 cars leading to the BGP01, all that money and nothing to show for it... clearly it shows the decision making was the weak point at HondaF1 these last several years.

[Michiba]

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 2102.shtml

Wurz says that Honda actually designed 3 cars leading to the BGP01, all that money and nothing to show for it... clearly it shows the decision making was the weak point at HondaF1 these last several years.

I wouldn't say that they have nothing to show for it, they are now leading both championships.

I think this goes to the core of car design, where you can put all your theories together to design the car in a way which you think is optimal, but on the track it is useless. It's interesting to compare the BGP01 with the F60. On one hand you ahve a car that was fast out of the box, with the other being a bit of a lemon. I don't think the F60 can ever beat the BGP01 because the design is inherently flawed compared to the BGP01, despite all the development. What are others thoughts on this?

For fans of australian V8's, this brings to mind the cars of the late 90's/early 00's, where Holden clearly had a better car, and no amount of development from Ford could make them competitive.

[jamsbong]

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 2102.shtml

Wurz says that Honda actually designed 3 cars leading to the BGP01, all that money and nothing to show for it... clearly it shows the decision making was the weak point at HondaF1 these last several years.

BGP001 is actually a half-billion Euro baby! Wow! Looks like we can expect more wins from Brawn. The rest of the teams can only wait for next year to enjoy fruits of success.

Red Bull is the closest to Brawn at the moment and I think even if they end up really close to Brawn only, they should proud of that.

[donskar]

Wurz's information (if we accept it as true) certainly sheds a new light on the Brawn's success.

Half a BILLION Euros; FIVE wind tunnels; THREE simultaneous design iterations! Let's stop the David and Goliath suggestions -- unless you want to call Brawn "Goliath". And Brawn (IMO) is NOT a case of creativity versus big budgets. Rather Brawn's enormous budget and expenditures are the opposite of the future most of us want to see.

PS: I like Brawn, and am happy for their success.