2023 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 21 - 23

[Tvetovnato]

you need someone to tell you that Merc (with Lewis in particular) went for quali setup? I thought it was pretty obvious because of where he finished, and especially since they were adjusting the engine during first part of the race to manage heat, which means they sacrificed cooling (cooling is a big drag contributor) for the race to gain performance in quali (when it was much cooler), it was in the conversation Lewis had with his engineer, he asked where he is losing all the time, and was told it was in the straights and added that it was due to having to manage engine heat, later, when the car got lighter, perhaps it wasn't such an issue, but still he finished what - 40 seconds? behind Max, who he beat to P1 in quali

Max on the other hand (and probably all the rest), had race temperatures in mind when they set the car up for quali, which is why the car wouldn't "work" in quali conditions and he was sliding all over, and probably Russel was in similar situation, because I don't remember any messages from him about having to manage temperatures in the race, and in quali he didn't go anywhere (partially due to team mistake)

No one in their right frame of mind consciously sacrifices race pace for a glory run in qualifying, unless it’s Monaco where it’s 100 % impossible to overtake on track, especially not on a weekend where you know it’s going to be extremely hot on race day and temps are critical. Hamilton mentioned as usual after qualifying that they usually fare better in the race than in qualifying, which would indicate that they hoped for the same story today, but it did not turn out to be true for various reasons.

Russell managed PU temps very early on as well, so it was likely a wrong estimatation by Merc on how much cooling was required. We’ll see what the true reason was in their debrief, but until then, there is nothing that says that they consciously went with a qualifying setup.

red bull did it when they were the underdog and trying out different things to challenge Mercedes, when they did good in quali, then fell in race, just like Lewis did today
yet that isn't enough and you feel that generalizing - "no one in their right mind" is actually an argument...

We didn’t see anything unusual today in terms of how the race unfolded, other than that Hamilton at some stages didn’t fire up the pace in the beginning of the stints which cost him a possible podium. His pace in the latter stages was very good in comparison with all other drivers bar Verstappen, which is again nothing unusual given that the Red Bull has had much better race pace in relation to their qualifying pace all year. Hamilton’s real fight was always gonna be with the McLarens and possibly Perez, which it turned out to be. Russels recovery also showed that the Mercedes was either second or third fastest today. So again, there is nothing that would indicate that they went for a qualifying setup, and the fact that RB has done that in the past does not change it.

[jz11]

ok, then, your explanation is that George is superior race driver to Lewis, who couldn't manage his tires properly to extract everything from the package, is that what you're saying?

[Tvetovnato]

ok, then, your explanation is that George is superior race driver to Lewis, who couldn't manage his tires properly to extract everything from the package, is that what you're saying?

When was I saying that? Russell was not quicker than Hamilton today, so no, that’s not at all what I was saying. I am talking about the so called qualifying setup that suddenly now is out of the discussion apparently.

[cplchanb]

It was always gonna be disastrous to implement a cost cap at the same time as the biggest rule change of all time in the sport. This was bound to happen. Shame no one will remember a battle for P2 in races and championships, as that is all we will get until 2026 when it’s impossible for any team to properly bridge this kind of gap.

And yes, RB deserves this and everyone else have themselves to blame yada yada, Hamilton enjoyed a similar advantage in some years bla bla, but it was just as bad in the Hamilton days as in the Schumacher days as in the Vettel days.

A continuation of the 2021 rules would at the moment have a 4 team battle for the championship without doubt, and the racing would be just as good as today since DRS turned out to be decisive with these new rules anyway.

you do realise ferrari started off with the fastest car

In a few select early races when everyone were finding their feet yes, and some odd one when RB dropped the ball with the setup. Other than that, they were crushing the opposition all in all, and this year we see the true potential of the concept they chose.

Well if they're going to make the sport this prescriptive they might as well implement a mid season BoP to equalize the competition. Rb doesn't need to make any revolutionary changes anymore in this current ruleset since they are safe knowing that any major changes from teams will set them back a whole development cycle. It's essentially a parallel performance curve now and it's hard to see any intersection from any teams now until 2026.

It makes sense more than ever now to introduce success ballast relative to their performance gains. You can argue against it back in 2020 since teams had free reign to use whatever resources they got to close in at any time but now the order is more or less set in stone by 1/3 due to the cap.

[organic]

Towards the end of the race when Perez was closing in on Norris, and when Norris got mad on the radio, he was trying to pass Yuki

Yuki drove past over 15 blue flags boards and was told 3x on his radio that he had blue flags to yield to Norris behind

How is that not penalty worthy? It affected Monaco last year heavily and it could have today if Perez's pace did not evaporate towards the end

It's lack of Consistency once again with penalties.

[Just_a_fan]

Towards the end of the race when Perez was closing in on Norris, and when Norris got mad on the radio, he was trying to pass Yuki

Yuki drove past over 15 blue flags boards and was told 3x on his radio that he had blue flags to yield to Norris behind

How is that not penalty worthy? It affected Monaco last year heavily and it could have today if Perez's pace did not evaporate towards the end

It's lack of Consistency once again with penalties.

I thought he sounded like a brat when he was complaining - presumably that's why that message was broadcast but those to Yuki weren't: got to make "The Show!". Yes, Yuki should be penalised if he's done as you in terms of passing blue flags without heeding them.

[Sieper]

Yuki also held up Perez for a lap. He is just totally self absorbed. Bah.

[AR3-GP]

Yuki is rattled by Ricciardo already imo.

[Sieper]

you do realise ferrari started off with the fastest car

In a few select early races when everyone were finding their feet yes, and some odd one when RB dropped the ball with the setup. Other than that, they were crushing the opposition all in all, and this year we see the true potential of the concept they chose.

Well if they're going to make the sport this prescriptive they might as well implement a mid season BoP to equalize the competition. Rb doesn't need to make any revolutionary changes anymore in this current ruleset since they are safe knowing that any major changes from teams will set them back a whole development cycle. It's essentially a parallel performance curve now and it's hard to see any intersection from any teams now until 2026.

It makes sense more than ever now to introduce success ballast relative to their performance gains. You can argue against it back in 2020 since teams had free reign to use whatever resources they got to close in at any time but now the order is more or less set in stone by 1/3 due to the cap.

All other teams can easily catch up, look at the steps Mclaren took, or how close AMR was at the beginning of the season. Merc is also steadily Improving. Redbull was no where in 20 and came quite close in 21. It can be done and quicker than you think.

[DGP123]

I’d hardly say he’s rattled. This is just, Yuki. Not very good, not very fast, rash on the radio, and crashes into stuff. Has nothing to do with Ricciardo’s arrival.

[organic]

McLaren hired RB engineers and made a jump in performance similar to that of amr when they did the same. With a similar looking package on the surface.

Amr have stalled, what will happen to McLaren's development after this I wonder

[AR3-GP]

McLaren hired RB engineers and made a jump in performance similar to that of amr when they did the same. With a similar looking package on the surface.

Amr have stalled, what will happen to McLaren's development after this I wonder

Which RB engineers did they hire? I don't think Marshall is there yet.

I thought the current car is the hybrid work of Key, Stella, and Promodrou (forgive this spelling)

[jz11]

ok, then, your explanation is that George is superior race driver to Lewis, who couldn't manage his tires properly to extract everything from the package, is that what you're saying?

When was I saying that? Russell was not quicker than Hamilton today, so no, that’s not at all what I was saying. I am talking about the so called qualifying setup that suddenly now is out of the discussion apparently.

there is no "so called qualifying setup", it is not a single thing, but there are things that make the car quicker in quali and slower in the race, like tire temp management geared towards 1 lap, if used in race, this leads to overheating and graining till tires wear off somewhat and generate less temp (because of reduced tread depth), it stops being a problem once the tires wear, you yourself said - Lewis had issues with tires early in stint but then was fine later on, this actually supports my theory

so my guess is Max and the rest had the car set up for race and couldn't get tires really in the window during the cold weather in quali, that is why Lewis had the pace in the cold weather but others were struggling
same can be said about cooling setup, someone here claimed that doesn't matter??! like wth, 0.003sec was the difference between pole and 2nd place, granted that the "p2" car didn't work well, but I can bet you if they reduced the cooling, that could easily be those 0.003sec they needed for that p1, come race day they perhaps hoped it won't be as hot, and the pace might be good enough to fight off Max since it is supposedly difficult to overtake here, which wasn't really the case, but whatever

and Russel went from P18 to P6, could he do that if he also had issues with overheating engine and tires that need babysitting when they are at their best?

[Tvetovnato]

ok, then, your explanation is that George is superior race driver to Lewis, who couldn't manage his tires properly to extract everything from the package, is that what you're saying?

When was I saying that? Russell was not quicker than Hamilton today, so no, that’s not at all what I was saying. I am talking about the so called qualifying setup that suddenly now is out of the discussion apparently.

there is no "so called qualifying setup", it is not a single thing, but there are things that make the car quicker in quali and slower in the race, like tire temp management geared towards 1 lap, if used in race, this leads to overheating and graining till tires wear off somewhat and generate less temp (because of reduced tread depth), it stops being a problem once the tires wear, you yourself said - Lewis had issues with tires early in stint but then was fine later on, this actually supports my theory

so my guess is Max and the rest had the car set up for race and couldn't get tires really in the window during the cold weather in quali, that is why Lewis had the pace in the cold weather but others were struggling
same can be said about cooling setup, someone here claimed that doesn't matter??! like wth, 0.003sec was the difference between pole and 2nd place, granted that the "p2" car didn't work well, but I can bet you if they reduced the cooling, that could easily be those 0.003sec they needed for that p1, come race day they perhaps hoped it won't be as hot, and the pace might be good enough to fight off Max since it is supposedly difficult to overtake here, which wasn't really the case, but whatever

and Russel went from P18 to P6, could he do that if he also had issues with overheating engine and tires that need babysitting when they are at their best?

I fully understand what a ”quali setup” is and isn’t. I don’t understand why they would need to gear tyre warmup for one lap when heating them is absolutely zero of an issue with the temps we had this weekend, quali included. This was never mentioned as any issue. Sure, cooling is a bit strange to get wrong like they did, but nothing so far says that they made a conscious decision to favour quali performance over race performance. Time might tell.

Hamilton’s early stint issue on the hards were down to his team overestimating in how gentle they needed to be bring them in, as confirmed by Toto. They dropped some 6 seconds because of that. They should have asked them to push a lot harder from the beginning as the tyre held up. That’s where they lost to Perez and Norris, it was no specific setup thing.

Russell going from P18 to P6 is indeed possible despite having to nurse an overheating car, it’s obviously related to the relative pace compared to slower cars, plus some incidents and a penalty in front of him. Hamilton fought faster cars than Russell.

The most logical question to ask (again) is why Mercedes would even sacrifice race pace in favour of quali pace, when they know they will be doomed on Sunday, either by being overtaken on track or in the pits. Makes absolutely no sense for a team chasing wins and not poles.

[ringo]

Towards the end of the race when Perez was closing in on Norris, and when Norris got mad on the radio, he was trying to pass Yuki

Yuki drove past over 15 blue flags boards and was told 3x on his radio that he had blue flags to yield to Norris behind

How is that not penalty worthy? It affected Monaco last year heavily and it could have today if Perez's pace did not evaporate towards the end

It's lack of Consistency once again with penalties.

He was helping redbull. Just like he did in 2021.
I wouldnt blame Yuki. He was most likelu given instructions to hold up lando.