What If F1 Team Cars Differ?

[F1Krof]

I have no proof whatsoever to think otherwise, but how can we be assured that both cars are identical?

What if they're not?

Can a team be penalized if found to deliberately slowing one of the cars?

[CMSMJ1]

I have no proof whatsoever to think otherwise, but how can we be assured that both cars are identical?

What if they're not?

Can a team be penalized if found to deliberately slowing one of the cars?

They do not have to be identical - they just both have to be legal.
So what?
Why would a team slow their own car? The team makes the money and it matters more to them than stroking the ego of a driver..


Would it be your suggestion that Max is being favoured at Red Bull? Or who is being 'slowed' and by which team?
If a team wishes to slow a driver - they tell him to slow down.

With a mod hat on...I can see this turning into a bickering fest - however, there will be enough rope and if you guys decide to hang yourselves then I'll delete this thread and learn the lessons for next time!

[F1Krof]

I have no proof whatsoever to think otherwise, but how can we be assured that both cars are identical?

What if they're not?

Can a team be penalized if found to deliberately slowing one of the cars?

They do not have to be identical - they just both have to be legal.
So what?
Why would a team slow their own car? The team makes the money and it matters more to them than stroking the ego of a driver..


Would it be your suggestion that Max is being favoured at Red Bull? Or who is being 'slowed' and by which team?
If a team wishes to slow a driver - they tell him to slow down.

With a mod hat on...I can see this turning into a bickering fest - however, there will be enough rope and if you guys decide to hang yourselves then I'll delete this thread and learn the lessons for next time!

No no, I'm not implying anything at all. Just curious if the cars are actually identical, or do they have some margin, and what are the regulations saying about that?

[organic]

There is margin and often if only one set of upgrades is available then they might bring them for one driver ahead of the other

This was routine for RB in 2021 and 2022 with Max receiving upgrades routinely 1 weekend earlier than Perez; this has changed for 2023 however where both drivers are receiving upgrades at the same time. I believe Checo pushed for more equal footing this season within the team and that was part of the result.

Lando getting the new McLaren upgrades before oscar is a goode example of this. McLaren did not have more than 1 set ready so one of their drivers got it.

There's no incentive for the team to be making one car deliberately faster than the other. If they were, that would mean deliberately sabotaging one of the two cars.

None of the engineers that work on the sabotaged side of the garage would stand for that nor would they remain silent if it was happening and rumours would spread. Engineers want their drivers to do well

[CMSMJ1]

I have no proof whatsoever to think otherwise, but how can we be assured that both cars are identical?

What if they're not?

Can a team be penalized if found to deliberately slowing one of the cars?

They do not have to be identical - they just both have to be legal.
So what?
Why would a team slow their own car? The team makes the money and it matters more to them than stroking the ego of a driver..


Would it be your suggestion that Max is being favoured at Red Bull? Or who is being 'slowed' and by which team?
If a team wishes to slow a driver - they tell him to slow down.

With a mod hat on...I can see this turning into a bickering fest - however, there will be enough rope and if you guys decide to hang yourselves then I'll delete this thread and learn the lessons for next time!

No no, I'm not implying anything at all. Just curious if the cars are actually identical, or do they have some margin, and what are the regulations saying about that?

As organic says ^^ the cars can be different but they do have to be legal.

I would reckon that there is not a time I can recall where any team has tried to hobble a driver by the issuing of substandard equipment. I should say, not on purpose anwyays and not maliciously.

Oohh - memory banks kicked in - I recall that Red Bull gave Seb a new front wing at Silverstone - he had broken his and they gave to Seb the one from Mark - the source of the quote "Not bad for a no2 driver"

This was all acknowledged and was not hidden in any way - but the team chose Seb to have the parts. This has to be 2009/2010??

The team makes the money...the team takes the decisions

[hollus]

Didn’t Hamilton insist on a different brake disk model one season, while his team mate stayed with the older one?

They also run different wings, sometimes wings (pit lane starts anyone?) , different tire compounds, etc.

They can be as different as they wish, and often for good reasons.

[hollus]

Can a team be penalized if found to deliberately slowing one of the cars?

Cough, ALO, cough, HAM, Cough, 2007, pit lane order… COUGH!
I imagine someone could intervene, but proof would have to be overwhelming.

In short, I don’t know!

[Just_a_fan]

Can a team be penalized if found to deliberately slowing one of the cars?

Cough, ALO, cough, HAM, Cough, 2007, pit lane order… COUGH!
I imagine someone could intervene, but proof would have to be overwhelming.

In short, I don’t know!

Would that be when Alonso was penalised 5 grid places for deliberately holding up his team mate and preventing him doing a lap? The same sort of penalty that is often handed out today when drivers interfere with another driver's qualifying lap.

Started when Hamilton didn't let Alonso pass him on track contrary to team orders (stupid behaviour by Hamilton that should have been slapped by the team and probably would if Alonso hadn't escalated as he did), then Alonso held up Hamilton in the pits as retribution and got a 5 place grid penalty for his troubles. So Alonso demanded that McLaren under-fuel Hamilton for the race or he would tell the FIA about the Ferrari info. Problem for Fernando was that Dennis was a straight-up guy and went and told the FIA about the information himself.

From Hungary onwards, Alonso was persona non grata so far as Dennis was concerned - trying to blackmail your TP will always end badly.

But to answer the OP, teams often run cars that aren't the same - one driver might prefer one wing over another, for example. Plenty of examples of that through the years. Likewise when only one set of new parts are available, one driver will get them and the other will drive the old design.

[Just_a_fan]

Didn’t Hamilton insist on a different brake disk model one season, while his team mate stayed with the older one?

Yes, he changed from Brembo to Carbone Industrie in Germany 2014 following a brake failure that led to him crashing in qualifying.

[hollus]

The point with ALO-HAM was indeed that series of events, and I did not mean to derail or point fingers, not even to appoint blame, just to mention (but I failed to) that it ended up with FIA personnel living the McLaren pits to make sure that no driver was being disadvantaged on purpose.
Which seemed relevant.

[Just_a_fan]

The point with ALO-HAM was indeed that series of events, and I did not mean to derail or point fingers, not even to appoint blame, just to mention (but I failed to) that it ended up with FIA personnel living the McLaren pits to make sure that no driver was being disadvantaged on purpose.
Which seemed relevant.

Ah, yes, that is relevant.

[ab_f1]

While its correct that teams would not sabotage one of the driver, they may chose to take direction more suited to one driver as compared to a balanced approach. Likely to happen if one of the driver is contending for Driver championship.

[BlueCheetah66]

Unless I remember this incorrectly, didn't Mclaren admit that Alonso had a very different car to Vandoorne in either 2017 or 18

[JordanMugen]

I have no proof whatsoever to think otherwise, but how can we be assured that both cars are identical?

What if they're not?

Can a team be penalized if found to deliberately slowing one of the cars?

No. There is zero requirement that the cars be identical. Just that they be built by the team (to the letter of the constructors' IP content required) and meet the technical regulations.

Oscar Piastri had the older specification McLaren bodywork at the 2023 Austrian Grand Prix, for example.

While at the 1986 Italian Grand Prix only Nelson Piquet raced with active suspension, since Mansell specifically refused to race the active suspension. Mansell even refused to test the active suspension, such that Piquet had to fly back from Brasil just to do a Williams active suspension test in England. Yet with Piquet taking race victory in, at the next race Mansell demanded an active suspension car ASAP (funny that)! [Source: Frank Dernie interviews]

Just curious if the cars are actually identical, or do they have some margin, and what are the regulations saying about that?

Obviously even parts that are intended to be identical like engines or bodywork have a manufacturing tolerance and therefore are not actually 100.00000000% identical.

One engine block to the next inevitably may have 5 microns difference or one crankshaft journal may have 2 microns difference to another, hence why engine builders have a variety of bearings available to ensure the correct bearing clearance. This may add up to one Formula One power unit producing 1-3hp more than another, but we trust they are distributed randomly where applicable (spec series) or that the better units go to the works team (the case in F1 unfortunately as I believe the FIA does not mandate random distribution?).

If the team builds two "identical" chassis and one weighs 140.050kg and another weighs 140.367kg due to slight variations in a hand-made lay-up and resin process, the team may choose to allocate the lighter one to the number one driver -- which is their right to do so. Or a team with equal drivers, may choose to allocate the lighter one to the heavier, taller driver who needs to run more driver ballast anyway, in order to try to make it more fair perhaps (does that make sense, I'm not sure!).

[Just_a_fan]

I have no proof whatsoever to think otherwise, but how can we be assured that both cars are identical?

What if they're not?

Can a team be penalized if found to deliberately slowing one of the cars?

No. There is zero requirement that the cars be identical.

They have to have identical liveries on each car (barring driver numbers, name, etc.). Came to prominence in 1999 with BAR running the two cars with different liveries and the FIA getting all bent up about it.

BAR should probably have spent more effort on the car and less on the livery - they only had 2 double-car finishes all season. Awful set of results.