2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[CHT]

Belgium Race Debrief

.As many have discussed here @5.03 Merc is indeed still struggling to understand the car.

I think you're reading far too much into that bit

Every team is taking a huge amount of learning and understanding from their cars to better develop their 2024 cars. Andrea Stella has said that many times in both recent times and towards the beginning of the season

Mike Elliott isn't saying that they're lacking understanding of the car. Simply that more understanding is to come. Merc have historically been brilliant at slowly and methodically unpicking their car's performance and discovering new traits & setup windows as the season progresses - w12's post-silverstone characteristics are a good example

So yes I don't think many alarm bells should be or will be ringing when Merc fans hear what he says

My interpretation of "Learning more about this Car" is Merc still trying to learn more about W14 so they don't repeat the same mistake in W15. This is different from learning more about the car to optimize its performance.

For this reason, MERC is likely to come out with a different car to W14 in 2024 which they will again need time to understand, while the likes of RBR will be deep into the next evolution of their 2023 challenger.

[denyall]

Interesting Move: Adil El Ouazizi Aerodynamics Team Leader at Red Bull has joined Mercedes as Principal Aerodynamicist.

Did this sneak under the radar?!

To what degree does an aero team lead understand and influence the overall car concept? What I'm asking is, will this person come in and spoil the RB "secret sauce" or come in with the rough outlines of a concept?

[CHT]

Interesting Move: Adil El Ouazizi Aerodynamics Team Leader at Red Bull has joined Mercedes as Principal Aerodynamicist.

Did this sneak under the radar?!

To what degree does an aero team lead understand and influence the overall car concept? What I'm asking is, will this person come in and spoil the RB "secret sauce" or come in with the rough outlines of a concept?

At least Merc is acknowledging they need help in aero department even with this, it may not necessary that Merc is able to copy wholesale of what RBR is doing as I am sure there will be certain NDA in RBR employment contract.

I remember sometime back AN say he still uses pencil and paper to design his car and that is something that most engineers will have difficulties copying

[AR3-GP]

Interesting Move: Adil El Ouazizi Aerodynamics Team Leader at Red Bull has joined Mercedes as Principal Aerodynamicist.

Did this sneak under the radar?!

To what degree does an aero team lead understand and influence the overall car concept? What I'm asking is, will this person come in and spoil the RB "secret sauce" or come in with the rough outlines of a concept?

It is difficult to say really. An F1 car is so complex. Even if this man knew everything there is to know, could he really significantly shift what has already been set in motion with the W15? I think when DF went to Aston Martin, it was at least a year before he had any impact.

[Willy]

Once again, a team thread is being dragged for driver d*** comparison.

[AR3-GP]

Maybe Mercedes should send their cars out separately? Are they actually benefitting from slip streams? Spain and Spa qualifying incidents are very strange.

[denyall]

Maybe Mercedes should send their cars out separately? Are they actually benefitting from slip streams? Spain and Spa qualifying incidents are very strange.

Typically they aim to trade off giving each other the tow, however I agree, seems like they're having a lot of difficulty in managing both cars when they run close together.

My view is that George is blowing it or at least he blew it in Spa and Budapest.

[Just_a_fan]

Did this sneak under the radar?!

To what degree does an aero team lead understand and influence the overall car concept? What I'm asking is, will this person come in and spoil the RB "secret sauce" or come in with the rough outlines of a concept?

At least Merc is acknowledging they need help in aero department even with this, it may not necessary that Merc is able to copy wholesale of what RBR is doing as I am sure there will be certain NDA in RBR employment contract.

I remember sometime back AN say he still uses pencil and paper to design his car and that is something that most engineers will have difficulties copying

Newey doesn't design the car. And an aero lead will have a pretty decent overview and understanding of the whole concept even if they only work on one particular aspect of it e.g. front wing.

[Just_a_fan]

Maybe Mercedes should send their cars out separately? Are they actually benefitting from slip streams? Spain and Spa qualifying incidents are very strange.

Typically they aim to trade off giving each other the tow, however I agree, seems like they're having a lot of difficulty in managing both cars when they run close together.

My view is that George is blowing it or at least he blew it in Spa and Budapest.

I wonder if George got comfortable last year when Lewis was doing the donkey work and he was enjoying himself ahead of him. And now that he is competing head-to-head, he's finding that the old man is still a little bit handy. And as George seems to think only of beating Lewis on a moment-by-moment basis rather than playing the long game (something Lewis learned to do over his career), he's tripping over himself.

The team will need to manage that, either by giving the drivers more separation when they leave the pits, or by giving them a slap when they mess up.

[ringo]

Maybe Mercedes should send their cars out separately? Are they actually benefitting from slip streams? Spain and Spa qualifying incidents are very strange.

Typically they aim to trade off giving each other the tow, however I agree, seems like they're having a lot of difficulty in managing both cars when they run close together.

My view is that George is blowing it or at least he blew it in Spa and Budapest.

I wonder if George got comfortable last year when Lewis was doing the donkey work and he was enjoying himself ahead of him. And now that he is competing head-to-head, he's finding that the old man is still a little bit handy. And as George seems to think only of beating Lewis on a moment-by-moment basis rather than playing the long game (something Lewis learned to do over his career), he's tripping over himself.

The team will need to manage that, either by giving the drivers more separation when they leave the pits, or by giving them a slap when they mess up.

Russel should drive just one more year for Mercedes if he loses this year and next year. If he stays longer he will go into a downward spiral and start questioning his abilities like Bottas did. He should target Redbull.
He is in a similar boat to Norris, they both need a boost in a fast car. Years in F-1 and little results, and both have teammates now that can seriously dull their shine. Both should gun for a redbull seat.
I can see russel as a toxic driver even if Lewis is gone. Whoever he gets as teammate that challenges him will probably get less respect than Lewis does.

[CHT]

Did this sneak under the radar?!

To what degree does an aero team lead understand and influence the overall car concept? What I'm asking is, will this person come in and spoil the RB "secret sauce" or come in with the rough outlines of a concept?

At least Merc is acknowledging they need help in aero department even with this, it may not necessary that Merc is able to copy wholesale of what RBR is doing as I am sure there will be certain NDA in RBR employment contract.

I remember sometime back AN say he still uses pencil and paper to design his car and that is something that most engineers will have difficulties copying

Newey doesn't design the car. And an aero lead will have a pretty decent overview and understanding of the whole concept even if they only work on one particular aspect of it e.g. front wing.

Yes AN is still very involved in the design process, starting with concepts using pencil paper and an eraser.I
I think we can call it an art form or AN call it problem-solving.

Aero lead will translate AN sketches into the engineering design.

www.redbull.com/sg-en/adrian-newey-interview

[Willy]

Typically they aim to trade off giving each other the tow, however I agree, seems like they're having a lot of difficulty in managing both cars when they run close together.

My view is that George is blowing it or at least he blew it in Spa and Budapest.

I wonder if George got comfortable last year when Lewis was doing the donkey work and he was enjoying himself ahead of him. And now that he is competing head-to-head, he's finding that the old man is still a little bit handy. And as George seems to think only of beating Lewis on a moment-by-moment basis rather than playing the long game (something Lewis learned to do over his career), he's tripping over himself.

The team will need to manage that, either by giving the drivers more separation when they leave the pits, or by giving them a slap when they mess up.

Russel should drive just one more year for Mercedes if he loses this year and next year. If he stays longer he will go into a downward spiral and start questioning his abilities like Bottas did. He should target Redbull.
He is in a similar boat to Norris, they both need a boost in a fast car. Years in F-1 and little results, and both have teammates now that can seriously dull their shine. Both should gun for a redbull seat.
I can see russel as a toxic driver even if Lewis is gone. Whoever he gets as teammate that challenges him will probably get less respect than Lewis does.

I agree that Russell should look elsewhere. I don't think Mercedes can overcome the deficit they have against Red Bull in the current regulations. I am not sure if Red Bull would be ready to take him as they have their eyes on getting Ricciardo back in the seat. They wouldn't want someone who can create problems in the team when Max is doing the job for them. Their need is just a reliable driver who can consistently finish behind Max and collect victories if Max has some issues. May be Aston Martin would be a good bet for both Russell and Norris. If Honda manages to deliver another strong PU for Aston for 2026, with Aston having complete new infrastructure and key new signings, it would be a good bet. 2026+ would still be a ground effects era and if Mercedes hasn't understood the techniques required to make the car work for the current regulations, I doubt if they can do it for 2026+. Remember, McLaren was a consistent winner until 2012 when Lewis decided to go for total underperformer like Mercedes. As luck would have it, it turned out to be a correct decision.

[Just_a_fan]

I agree that Russell should look elsewhere. I don't think Mercedes can overcome the deficit they have against Red Bull in the current regulations. I am not sure if Red Bull would be ready to take him as they have their eyes on getting Ricciardo back in the seat. They wouldn't want someone who can create problems in the team when Max is doing the job for them. Their need is just a reliable driver who can consistently finish behind Max and collect victories if Max has some issues. May be Aston Martin would be a good bet for both Russell and Norris. If Honda manages to deliver another strong PU for Aston for 2026, with Aston having complete new infrastructure and key new signings, it would be a good bet. 2026+ would still be a ground effects era and if Mercedes hasn't understood the techniques required to make the car work for the current regulations, I doubt if they can do it for 2026+. Remember, McLaren was a consistent winner until 2012 when Lewis decided to go for total underperformer like Mercedes. As luck would have it, it turned out to be a correct decision.

Where would he go? As you say, RB don't want him as they have their own way of doing things and that involves Max plus a tail-gunner. Russell doesn't strike me as the tail-gunner type.

AM - there's really only one seat at the moment as Stoll Jnr is unlikely to be dropped by Daddy. Is Alonso likely to jump soon?

McLaren are probably very happy with their two. Norris might want to leave but, again, where to?

No one in their right mind would go to Ferrari. Great history, amazing cars through the years, etc., etc., but they couldn't win an argument at the moment and don't seem likely to really, albeit they did well in Spa.

As for Merc not being able to get back on it before after 2026, I'm not so sure. I'll wait until this time next season on that one. They have no excuses for the W15. If it's a dog then they really have dropped the ball and won't get back anytime soon. If it's up there (within 0.5s of RB) then they've got the drivers to put Max under some pressure - assuming his tail-gunner isn't able to help him regularly.

[ValeVida46]

From @ralphster7 on the Moving F1 staff thread

Interesting Move: Adil El Ouazizi Aerodynamics Team Leader at Red Bull has joined Mercedes as Principal Aerodynamicist.

From his linked in account it appears the transition was immediate.
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/adil-el-ouaz ... gle.com%2F

[PlatinumZealot]

Nice!