How do they regulate how much the DRS opens during a race?

[yamahasho]

From my understanding, they use a roller test to check the opening but that test seems easy to pass, you can just lock the hydraulic actuator to pass the test. As shown here.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/what ... 37677/amp/





Given the images it would be easy to pass the static tests but allow the hydraulics or electronics to open it more when needed.

But always wondered what would prevent the hydraulics to open more when needed, I’m assuming the FIA has other tests?

[SiLo]

This has given me an interesting thought, could teams be using the DRS actuator to lift the top plane by 1-2mm on straights to dump drag while having it appear as just movement of the wing? I don't know how sensitive those cameras are tracking the dots for flex.

[yamahasho]

I was thinking something similar but a camera that can measure to the millimeter or some kind of laser at 200mph, I find that hard to believe.

Maybe some sensor inside that the FIA monitors.

But to me some cars appear wider than others but each car having a different rake, it’s hard to judge, they must need something else to measure the gap during the race.

[TFSA]

AFAIK the hydraulic actuator is a spec part (identical for every team), and it always travels the full distance, opening the wing fully.

As such, the gap is not dependant on how far open the wing is (because it's always 100%), but rather on the design specifications of the wing. Also, it would be very easy to tell, even by eye, if the wing doesn't fully open.

[yamahasho]

Thanks but i’m still scratching my head on this, spec part or not, from the images of the actuator clearly looks like it can open more than the 85mm otherwise how did teams get caught out on it.

Although some claimed the part was defective it shows it can be opened more to a point where it’s creating lift on the rear.

Let’s say if 85mm reduces drag by 25% then even 2mm extra gap could give you over 26% drag reduction. Maybe worth like 5kph. The actuator arm looks it can be adjusted. You could also pivot the mounting points to get the flap even more flat.

Given the amount of electronics and electro hydraulics on these cars, it would be easy to program it to open more than the allowed amount. Just saying.

[TFSA]

Thanks but i’m still scratching my head on this, spec part or not, from the images of the actuator clearly looks like it can open more than the 85mm otherwise how did teams get caught out on it.

Although some claimed the part was defective it shows it can be opened more to a point where it’s creating lift on the rear.

Let’s say if 85mm reduces drag by 25% then even 2mm extra gap could give you over 26% drag reduction. Maybe worth like 5kph. The actuator arm looks it can be adjusted. You could also pivot the mounting points to get the flap even more flat.

Given the amount of electronics and electro hydraulics on these cars, it would be easy to program it to open more than the allowed amount. Just saying.

Sorry, but no it wouldn't. This is literally not possible, because the actuator always moves 100% of its travel length. It's a pull-mechanism, and it cannot pull beyond its allocated length without breaking, no matter how you program it.

Also, any electronic had to go through the FIA ECU. FIA has access to all the data and software.

Mercedes got caught out on it in 2021 because of tolerances on the wing. The inner part of the wing did fulfill the requirements, but the outer part failed the test. Remember that the wings do have flex, and since the DRS actuator pulls on the central part of the wing, but the outer part failed the test, it has nothing to do with the actuator. Mercedes simply got their tolerances wrong.

[yamahasho]

I can see if the FIA has complete control over the parts so no one can disassemble it but if a team can fiddle with the mechanism there are so many ways to get more travel out of the actuator pictured even with no programming.

You could enlarge or reposition the holes, put in a smaller height piston, bore the end of the piston chamber to give it more travel, angle the mounting plane and adjust movement of the piston as needed, you could make the arm flex, I could go on.

I’m think it there must be some measurement sensor the FIA regulates.

[TFSA]

I can see if the FIA has complete control over the parts so no one can disassemble it but if a team can fiddle with the mechanism there are so many ways to get more travel out of the actuator pictured even with no programming.

You could enlarge or reposition the holes, put in a smaller height piston, bore the end of the piston chamber to give it more travel, angle the mounting plane and adjust movement of the piston as needed, you could make the arm flex, I could go on.

I’m think it there must be some measurement sensor the FIA regulates.

But that would make the wing fail the test. The entire construction of the wing has to be able to withstand the FIA test. If the DRS actuator can open the wing more than 85 mm (because of manipulation or whatever), then so can the FIA test, because it's not just a measurement test, but it actually applies physical pressure to the wing during the test.

[yamahasho]

I can see if the FIA has complete control over the parts so no one can disassemble it but if a team can fiddle with the mechanism there are so many ways to get more travel out of the actuator pictured even with no programming.

You could enlarge or reposition the holes, put in a smaller height piston, bore the end of the piston chamber to give it more travel, angle the mounting plane and adjust movement of the piston as needed, you could make the arm flex, I could go on.

I’m think it there must be some measurement sensor the FIA regulates.

But that would make the wing fail the test. The entire construction of the wing has to be able to withstand the FIA test. If the DRS actuator can open the wing more than 85 mm (because of manipulation or whatever), then so can the FIA test, because it's not just a measurement test, but it actually applies physical pressure to the wing during the test.

I agree.

I would do something like this, assuming the actuator can be disassembled. Just add stopper pistons within the chamber to stop the piston moving more than you want it to. Or a bit more complicated would something like this.




Just use a series of valves to bleed out the 2nd chamber when needed and fill the 2nd chamber back up for the static tests. This is not something new, if I recall, teams were bleeding their shocks after qualifying to raise the car up for heavier fuels loads.


But if its a spec part like you said, then all bets are off.

[Rodak]

Just use a series of valves to bleed out the 2nd chamber when needed and fill the 2nd chamber back up for the static tests. This is not something new, if I recall, teams were bleeding their shocks after qualifying to raise the car up for heavier fuels loads.

Springs carry the load, shocks dampen the suspension movement; all F1 cars use torsion springs. 'Bleeding' the shocks won't change ride height.

[yamahasho]

Just use a series of valves to bleed out the 2nd chamber when needed and fill the 2nd chamber back up for the static tests. This is not something new, if I recall, teams were bleeding their shocks after qualifying to raise the car up for heavier fuels loads.

Springs carry the load, shocks dampen the suspension movement; all F1 cars use torsion springs. 'Bleeding' the shocks won't change ride height.

I’m sure someone could clarify on how exactly they were changing ride height after qualifying. My assumption is they filled the shock with a separate gas or had a separate chamber to compress shocks which would then compress the spring to lower the car and bleed the gas out overnight to raise the car back up.

[chrisc90]

Cant find a example, but im sure ive seen little peaks in the DRS traces when the flap initially opens on some telemetry before.

[dialtone]

Cant find a example, but im sure ive seen little peaks in the DRS traces when the flap initially opens on some telemetry before.

That’s just because the trace has some set values when it opens that aren’t explained but it doesn’t meant it opened more or less.

[chrisc90]

Cant find a example, but im sure ive seen little peaks in the DRS traces when the flap initially opens on some telemetry before.

That’s just because the trace has some set values when it opens that aren’t explained but it doesn’t meant it opened more or less.

Ahh thanks.

I didnt know whether it worked off a angle setting rather than just on or off.

[yamahasho]

Cant find a example, but im sure ive seen little peaks in the DRS traces when the flap initially opens on some telemetry before.

Interesting. Thank you.