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Just to be clear, any attempt to open the DRS more than allowed by regulation, no matter the method, wouldn't be some grey area of the rules, open to interpretation, it would be deliberate cheating. My understanding is there are hard stops for both open and closed and that is what's checked for legality with the roller insert and another tool for closed. From the Technical Regulations:
3.10.10 Drag Reduction System (DRS)
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.
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h. At any Y plane, the distance between the two sections of the Rear Wing Profiles at their
closest position must lie between 10mm and 85mm.
Thank you all, just for kicks, Chatgpt's answer, gives me some information i didn't consider:
how does the FIA test the DRS gap opening?
As of my last update in September 2021, the specific testing procedures used by the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA) for the Drag Reduction System (DRS) gap opening in Formula 1 were not publicly disclosed. However, I can provide some general insights into how such testing might be carried out, based on typical practices in motorsport regulations.
On-track Monitoring: During official Formula 1 testing sessions or race weekends, the FIA may closely monitor and measure the DRS gap opening of each car using specialized equipment and sensors. This allows them to ensure that the DRS system complies with the regulations, and that the gap adheres to the specified range, typically between 10mm and 85mm, as mentioned in the regulation you provided.
Data Analysis: Formula 1 cars are equipped with numerous sensors that collect vast amounts of data during each session. The FIA can use this data to analyze the DRS usage and verify compliance with the regulations. Engineers and officials can review the data to check if the DRS activation meets the criteria set forth in the technical regulations.
Static Testing: In addition to on-track monitoring, the FIA might conduct static tests during car inspections to ensure that the DRS mechanism operates correctly and remains within the allowable parameters. This could involve checking the axis of rotation, measuring distances, and ensuring that all components remain within the designated boundaries.
Simulations and Wind Tunnel Testing: Prior to the season, teams might run simulations and wind tunnel tests to optimize their DRS systems for performance and compliance. While the FIA might not directly conduct these tests, they can use the results to cross-check the data from on-track and static testing.
Control Electronics Inspection: The FIA could inspect the control electronics specified in the regulations (Article 8.3) to ensure they function correctly and that any alteration in the incidence of the uppermost closed section (flap) is indeed commanded by direct driver input.
It's important to note that specific details of the testing procedures and protocols are generally not disclosed publicly by the FIA, as they are subject to ongoing development and refinement to maintain fair competition and safety in the sport. The FIA works closely with teams to enforce technical regulations and ensure that all cars adhere to the rules set forth for DRS usage.
Question: Given a double acting cylinder, is it possible to increase the linear motion of the cylinder?
"Yes, it is possible to increase the linear motion of a double-acting cylinder by adjusting certain parameters or adding mechanical components. Here are some ways to achieve increased linear motion:
Stroke Length: The most straightforward method is to use a cylinder with a longer stroke length. The stroke length is the maximum distance the piston or rod can travel between its fully extended and fully retracted positions. By using a cylinder with a longer stroke length, you can increase the overall linear motion of the cylinder.
Mechanical Extension: In some applications, you can attach mechanical extensions to the rod or piston of the cylinder. These extensions can effectively increase the overall length of the rod and, consequently, the linear motion of the cylinder.
Linkage Mechanisms: Implementing linkage mechanisms can translate the motion of the cylinder into more extended linear movements. Linkages, such as levers or cranks, can convert the back-and-forth motion of the cylinder into a longer or more complex linear path.
Telescoping Cylinders: Telescoping cylinders consist of nested cylinders that extend and retract within each other. By using telescoping cylinders, you can achieve greater linear motion without significantly increasing the physical length of the cylinder.
Pulleys and Belts: In certain applications, you can use pulley systems and belts to translate the linear motion of the cylinder into a more extensive linear movement.
It's important to note that while these methods can increase the linear motion of the cylinder, they might come with some trade-offs. Longer stroke lengths, for example, might result in reduced speed or increased mechanical complexity. The specific approach taken will depend on the requirements of the application and the limitations of the system."
If you're considering modifying or enhancing the linear motion of a double-acting cylinder, it is advisable to consult with experts in fluid power systems or mechanical engineering to ensure the modifications are safe, efficient, and suitable for the intended application.
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Another thing to consider is that it would be hard to pull off any tricks with the DRS mechanism itself as the entirety of it is an open source component.
“Open Source Components” (OSC) are components whose Design Specification and Intellectual Property is made available to all Competitors through the mechanisms defined in this Article 17.6 (including, without limitation, the components identified as such in Appendix 5).
17.6.2
For all OSC in use by all Competitors, the Design Specification must reside on a designated server specified by the FIA, and be accessible by all Competitors. Details about the server, access credentials and file naming and format conventions may be found in the Appendix to the Technical and Sporting Regulations.
The DRS is listed in Appendix 5 on page 167 under 2C:
Another thing to consider is that it would be hard to pull off any tricks with the DRS mechanism itself as the entirety of it is an open source component.
“Open Source Components” (OSC) are components whose Design Specification and Intellectual Property is made available to all Competitors through the mechanisms defined in this Article 17.6 (including, without limitation, the components identified as such in Appendix 5).
17.6.2
For all OSC in use by all Competitors, the Design Specification must reside on a designated server specified by the FIA, and be accessible by all Competitors. Details about the server, access credentials and file naming and format conventions may be found in the Appendix to the Technical and Sporting Regulations.
This is good information, I think any team can post the technical drawings and such on a server but the actual one could be modified. You could make it like a viscous coupling with a separate fluid where certain friction or temperature would negate the hard stops but free to move when needed. Nothing you might see in a technical drawing.
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This is good information, I think any team can post the technical drawings and such on a server but the actual one could be modified. You could make it like a viscous coupling with a separate fluid where certain friction or temperature would negate the hard stops but free to move when needed. Nothing you might see in a technical drawing.
No, it can't be modified; that's the whole point of posting the drawings. Is this so hard to understand? If you modify it you are CHEATING and will be fined, disqualified, whatever. This is a defined part; you can make your own but it has to be this....
This is good information, I think any team can post the technical drawings and such on a server but the actual one could be modified. You could make it like a viscous coupling with a separate fluid where certain friction or temperature would negate the hard stops but free to move when needed. Nothing you might see in a technical drawing.
No, it can't be modified; that's the whole point of posting the drawings. Is this so hard to understand? If you modify it you are CHEATING and will be fined, disqualified, whatever. This is a defined part; you can make your own but it has to be this....
Only if you get caught, I have given examples of using different fluids, so drawings don’t show those. You can have an arm that flexes. You can have an arm that stretches due to temperature to increase the flap gap. Drawings don’t show stress tests. Drawings don’t show fluid pressure. I can go on.
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yamahasho wrote:Thank you all, just for kicks, Chatgpt's answer, gives me some information i didn't consider:
Please don't trust ChatGPT with telling you any factual information. I asked it questions relating to Formula 1 history when I was trying it out, and it claimed Hamilton won the 2010 Season
yamahasho wrote:Thank you all, just for kicks, Chatgpt's answer, gives me some information i didn't consider:
Please don't trust ChatGPT with telling you any factual information. I asked it questions relating to Formula 1 history when I was trying it out, and it claimed Hamilton won the 2010 Season
I agree some of the answers are strange by Chatgpt, I recall Chatgpt only has information back to a certain date on some things. Still useful to give ideas and such.
But overall I’m good with the discussion I think FIA conducts tests that the public wouldn’t know about.
Thanks all.
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Just a small addition, page 130 of the same regulations:
“Design Specification” means, in respect of a component all design (including three-dimensional geometry, tolerances, materials, surface finishes and design standards), manufacturing, installation and operational information related to that component.
That almost certainly excludes flex or anything to do with the arm for example, as it would be easy to deduce this from the material properties, at the very latest if there would be a major deviation from a team's own solution (raising question marks).
AFAIK the DRS runs off the main hydraulic system (steering, gearbox, differentials, etc) , so they could not use a specific fluid just in that cylinder, an additional fluid would be hard to hide with all the specifics they have to upload for all competitors to see.
Any attempt to do anything "clever" in this area would be, as Rodak wrote, plain and simply cheating without any excuse of "the rules are not clear" or "this is not fully covered by the regulations" - teams usually don't tread in those waters, as the risk associated is too high.
I had a similar thought, like a super precise camera or a laser measuring at 200mph. It's kind of mind-boggling to imagine. Maybe there's an internal sensor that the FIA keeps an eye on. With cars having different shapes and angles (like that fancy thing called "rake"), it's tough to eyeball the gap accurately. They must have some secret tech to measure it during the race.
I had a similar thought, like a super precise camera or a laser measuring at 200mph. It's kind of mind-boggling to imagine. Maybe there's an internal sensor that the FIA keeps an eye on. With cars having different shapes and angles (like that fancy thing called "rake"), it's tough to eyeball the gap accurately. They must have some secret tech to measure it during the race.
I wonder if the dots that were stuck on to measure flex could be used.
I believe there are 'stops' to prevent opening past a set point and the moving wing its self is tested with a gauge that has a stipulated insertion force at several points along the created slot.
Merc were done a few years back for the roller going through at one side.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.
I believe there are 'stops' to prevent opening past a set point and the moving wing its self is tested with a gauge that has a stipulated insertion force at several points along the created slot.
Merc were done a few years back for the roller going through at one side.
But that was likely more due to the mainwing-plane and not so much the DRS flap itself.the ball may not fit through the gap, but where the gap is coming from…
This was one of the main things in the new aero regs. A 1 piece wing instead of separate wing-end-plates. The 1 piece wing eradicates a lot of potential tricks.
I believe there are 'stops' to prevent opening past a set point and the moving wing its self is tested with a gauge that has a stipulated insertion force at several points along the created slot.
Merc were done a few years back for the roller going through at one side.
But that was likely more due to the mainwing-plane and not so much the DRS flap itself.the ball may not fit through the gap, but where the gap is coming from…
This was one of the main things in the new aero regs. A 1 piece wing instead of separate wing-end-plates. The 1 piece wing eradicates a lot of potential tricks.
If they were checking with the moving 'part' against a physical stop it cannot go any wider, or at least cant unless the other part moves, which I assume they check for. It could be fiddled not to open so wide, but that would disadvantage them so not probable.
For interest, there is a short vid here
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.
