2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[PikeStance]

I'm not quote mining, he changed his tine later and said exactly what I said ge said. He started with the quotes you made and then became more conciliatory.

In terms of braking, he could have braked a little earlier to ensure he was in no danger.

He braked as hard as he could... as soon as he realised the danger. Not the same as not being able to brake earlier.

“I’ll look back over it more and see if there was more I could have done, but it’s just a shame that we’re standing here and not still on track.

“Looking back on it, I think we both could have done things a bit differently.”

https://the-race.com/formula-1/sainzs-i ... misguided/

Nobody is doubting he was incredible all weekend. I was chapioning him in here long before many.

This is starting to feel like djos and Ricciardo all over again. He can and will make mistakes.

Still no quote? I could not find any such quote.

I did find this.

“I’ll look back over it more and see if there was more I could have done but it’s just a shame that we’re standing here and not still on track.”

Asked by PlanetF1.com if he was surprised that the FIA did not investigate the incident with Sainz, Piastri said: “I think we both could have done things a bit differently.

“It’s a very tight turn one and Carlos also didn’t have many options from where Lewis [Hamilton] was either.”

This is the closet to a "conciliatory" statement I could find.
The car that Sainz saw in his mirror was Norris, not Piastri who was side by side with him. I'm afraid Carlos has only himself to blame.

Yes, the exact quote he said later when he calmed down apparently if you don't like it, it is mining.

Listen, you are way to binary and fixated on apportioning fault.

Piastri should have been one meter back to be safe to avoid dodgy driving in a pressure situation where people squeeze, with you being the person next to concrete. That space always closes. That isn't about making it his fault

But you live in dreamland if you think he can repeat that driving and not get hit again. That corner will always be squeezed. That is the point.

He might, in theory, be fine to drive line that, but in reality he is going to get hit a few times, no matter how much it is someone else's "fault". 1 meter made nothing for his position in the race, and I guarantee you he will be more careful in future there.

It is actually quote mining. You stated that he was conciliatory. That is exactly the same point I already quoted. The key that you apparently ignoring i "Both" could have done "something a bit different."

The fact remains, Sainz immaturely places blame on Piastri, while Piastri maturely did not. Psychologically this makes sense. When you know you did something wrong, you will go out of your way to convince yourself and others you are blameless. He even went so far out of his way to call Piastri "inexperience." he can get away with that because Piastri is a "rookie." When you resort to an ad hom, your argument is weak.

[Darth-Piekus]

Pikestance personally I dont blame Oscar at all. Lando Norris took the same closed corner and nothing happened. Some drivers like Sainz,Perez and especially Verstappen need to learn that they are not driving alone in the race to dive bomb everywhere they like, moving from left to right like a pendulum and driving whenever they feel like it others off the track. Some in this forum need to be a little more supportive of our drivers cause all I see is our drivers getting all the blame for events they dont cause most of the time

[mwillems]

Still no quote? I could not find any such quote.

I did find this.


This is the closet to a "conciliatory" statement I could find.
The car that Sainz saw in his mirror was Norris, not Piastri who was side by side with him. I'm afraid Carlos has only himself to blame.

Yes, the exact quote he said later when he calmed down apparently if you don't like it, it is mining.

Listen, you are way to binary and fixated on apportioning fault.

Piastri should have been one meter back to be safe to avoid dodgy driving in a pressure situation where people squeeze, with you being the person next to concrete. That space always closes. That isn't about making it his fault

But you live in dreamland if you think he can repeat that driving and not get hit again. That corner will always be squeezed. That is the point.

He might, in theory, be fine to drive line that, but in reality he is going to get hit a few times, no matter how much it is someone else's "fault". 1 meter made nothing for his position in the race, and I guarantee you he will be more careful in future there.

It is actually quote mining. You stated that he was conciliatory. That is exactly the same point I already quoted. The key that you apparently ignoring i "Both" could have done "something a bit different."

The fact remains, Sainz immaturely places blame on Piastri, while Piastri maturely did not. Psychologically this makes sense. When you know you did something wrong, you will go out of your way to convince yourself and others you are blameless. He even went so far out of his way to call Piastri "inexperience." he can get away with that because Piastri is a "rookie." When you resort to an ad hom, your argument is weak.

There were heat of the moment quotes which you posted and then the quotes he posted later after calming down and discussing it with the team.

I'm afraid it is not mining if you choose the well thought out quotes, it is sensible. It's not exactly shocking that each driver blamed the other, that is almost always what happens before they calm down and become more conciliatory

What is telling is that Sainz didn't have the wherewithal to speak out afterwards with a calmer perspective, or at least I can't see the quotes.

[taperoo2k]

Pikestance personally I dont blame Oscar at all. Lando Norris took the same closed corner and nothing happened. Some drivers like Sainz,Perez and especially Verstappen need to learn that they are not driving alone in the race to dive bomb everywhere they like, moving from left to right like a pendulum and driving whenever they feel like it others off the track. Some in this forum need to be a little more supportive of our drivers cause all I see is our drivers getting all the blame for events they dont cause most of the time

It's the luck of the draw so to speak at the start of races. Oscar was just unlucky that Sainz ended up where he
did. Oscar will learn from the experience, which is better to gain during a rookie season. Not that Oscar looks like a rookie by his performances so far.

I think with Max he's a bit like Vettel in a Red Bull, expects everyone to get out of his way by virtue of having the best car. When Max does come under pressure from a team that catches Red Bull (hopefully it'll be McLaren) then I think we'll see a far more aggressive Max that takes a lot more risks. The good thing about McLaren's drivers is that both look to be capable of winning titles if given a car that wins races consistently.

[mclaren111]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qms3d3H ... el=THERACE


Nice...

[PikeStance]

Yes, the exact quote he said later when he calmed down apparently if you don't like it, it is mining.

Listen, you are way to binary and fixated on apportioning fault.

Piastri should have been one meter back to be safe to avoid dodgy driving in a pressure situation where people squeeze, with you being the person next to concrete. That space always closes. That isn't about making it his fault

But you live in dreamland if you think he can repeat that driving and not get hit again. That corner will always be squeezed. That is the point.

He might, in theory, be fine to drive line that, but in reality he is going to get hit a few times, no matter how much it is someone else's "fault". 1 meter made nothing for his position in the race, and I guarantee you he will be more careful in future there.

It is actually quote mining. You stated that he was conciliatory. That is exactly the same point I already quoted. The key that you apparently ignoring i "Both" could have done "something a bit different."

The fact remains, Sainz immaturely places blame on Piastri, while Piastri maturely did not. Psychologically this makes sense. When you know you did something wrong, you will go out of your way to convince yourself and others you are blameless. He even went so far out of his way to call Piastri "inexperience." he can get away with that because Piastri is a "rookie." When you resort to an ad hom, your argument is weak.

There were heat of the moment quotes which you posted and then the quotes he posted later after calming down and discussing it with the team.

I'm afraid it is not mining if you choose the well thought out quotes, it is sensible. It's not exactly shocking that each driver blamed the other, that is almost always what happens before they calm down and become more conciliatory

What is telling is that Sainz didn't have the wherewithal to speak out afterwards with a calmer perspective, or at least I can't see the quotes.

No dude, you claim he accepted full lame; that "He" could have done something differently. This is NOT what he said. He said that both drivers could have done something else. That is not accepting blame. That is rather maturely considering that different choices by BOTH drivers would/ could have a different result. Sorry, but you are wrong,... you should move on.

[mwillems]

It is actually quote mining. You stated that he was conciliatory. That is exactly the same point I already quoted. The key that you apparently ignoring i "Both" could have done "something a bit different."

The fact remains, Sainz immaturely places blame on Piastri, while Piastri maturely did not. Psychologically this makes sense. When you know you did something wrong, you will go out of your way to convince yourself and others you are blameless. He even went so far out of his way to call Piastri "inexperience." he can get away with that because Piastri is a "rookie." When you resort to an ad hom, your argument is weak.

There were heat of the moment quotes which you posted and then the quotes he posted later after calming down and discussing it with the team.

I'm afraid it is not mining if you choose the well thought out quotes, it is sensible. It's not exactly shocking that each driver blamed the other, that is almost always what happens before they calm down and become more conciliatory

What is telling is that Sainz didn't have the wherewithal to speak out afterwards with a calmer perspective, or at least I can't see the quotes.

No dude, you claim he accepted full lame; that "He" could have done something differently. This is NOT what he said. He said that both drivers could have done something else. That is not accepting blame. That is rather maturely considering that different choices by BOTH drivers would/ could have a different result. Sorry, but you are wrong,... you should move on.

Please quote where I said he took full blame

You know that you're quote imagining now?

You're totally wrong on what you think you remember I've said which explains your responses. I've been at pains to make simple that whilst fault and responsibility can easily be apportioned, it doesn't help anything. Fault from others will happen often in turn 1 at Spa as it will elsewhere. So keep away from the common faults of others, like the turn in at turn 1 at Spa, unless there is something to gain, which on that moment there was not.

He won't make that mistake again knowing Oscar, because he's smart and he knows a meter versus leaving a race is no contest.

But if you wish to think he has nothing to learn and adapt from that situation then be my guest to that opinion

[basti313]

It is actually quote mining. You stated that he was conciliatory. That is exactly the same point I already quoted. The key that you apparently ignoring i "Both" could have done "something a bit different."

The fact remains, Sainz immaturely places blame on Piastri, while Piastri maturely did not. Psychologically this makes sense. When you know you did something wrong, you will go out of your way to convince yourself and others you are blameless. He even went so far out of his way to call Piastri "inexperience." he can get away with that because Piastri is a "rookie." When you resort to an ad hom, your argument is weak.

There were heat of the moment quotes which you posted and then the quotes he posted later after calming down and discussing it with the team.

I'm afraid it is not mining if you choose the well thought out quotes, it is sensible. It's not exactly shocking that each driver blamed the other, that is almost always what happens before they calm down and become more conciliatory

What is telling is that Sainz didn't have the wherewithal to speak out afterwards with a calmer perspective, or at least I can't see the quotes.

No dude, you claim he accepted full lame; that "He" could have done something differently. This is NOT what he said. He said that both drivers could have done something else. That is not accepting blame. That is rather maturely considering that different choices by BOTH drivers would/ could have a different result. Sorry, but you are wrong,... you should move on.

I think you both have a point to some degree.

Just look at the lines...every experienced driver stayed on the outside. Verstappen even took the long route to get from the inside starting position to the outside, so did Perez. Alonso was on the inside, but blocked inside and made sure not run into Norris, both clearly breaked early and careful to avoid being in the same position as Piastri. Everyone else stayed away from this deadly apex, just look at the lines the Mercs and Bulls took, they had no intention at all to be more than 1.5 car widths to this apex. I think both teams had a clear agenda to stay away.

Stroll and Tsunoda were of course also there, so I mean...it fits that Sainz just stupidly cuts to this apex. But still...what the hell is Piastri doing there? The line did not make sense at all, he had more than enough room to not stay on the inside.

[billamend]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qms3d3H ... el=THERACE


Nice...

This is awful content. The bashing of Norris is so unwarranted, specially in this race where he was so calm.

[mwillems]

There were heat of the moment quotes which you posted and then the quotes he posted later after calming down and discussing it with the team.

I'm afraid it is not mining if you choose the well thought out quotes, it is sensible. It's not exactly shocking that each driver blamed the other, that is almost always what happens before they calm down and become more conciliatory

What is telling is that Sainz didn't have the wherewithal to speak out afterwards with a calmer perspective, or at least I can't see the quotes.

No dude, you claim he accepted full lame; that "He" could have done something differently. This is NOT what he said. He said that both drivers could have done something else. That is not accepting blame. That is rather maturely considering that different choices by BOTH drivers would/ could have a different result. Sorry, but you are wrong,... you should move on.

I think you both have a point to some degree.

Just look at the lines...every experienced driver stayed on the outside. Verstappen even took the long route to get from the inside starting position to the outside, so did Perez. Alonso was on the inside, but blocked inside and made sure not run into Norris, both clearly breaked early and careful to avoid being in the same position as Piastri. Everyone else stayed away from this deadly apex, just look at the lines the Mercs and Bulls took, they had no intention at all to be more than 1.5 car widths to this apex. I think both teams had a clear agenda to stay away.

Stroll and Tsunoda were of course also there, so I mean...it fits that Sainz just stupidly cuts to this apex. But still...what the hell is Piastri doing there? The line did not make sense at all, he had more than enough room to not stay on the inside.

I agree that Sainz was stupid. But how does that help Piastri avoid it in the future? How does it offer anything constructive. I fail to see how that conversation adds a single thing to racing? That's just the drama and the show.

The conversation the team will have with Piastri will be about what he can learn from it not sit there finger pointing like some in here think is useful. It will be about how he can avoid stupid situations.

That is why his later quotes had changed to the fact they both could have driven differently, because the team would have spoken about exactly the things I have stated.

But your analysis of both the drivers is spot on in my view. Neither were smart even if Sainz is more obvious.

[basti313]

No dude, you claim he accepted full lame; that "He" could have done something differently. This is NOT what he said. He said that both drivers could have done something else. That is not accepting blame. That is rather maturely considering that different choices by BOTH drivers would/ could have a different result. Sorry, but you are wrong,... you should move on.

I think you both have a point to some degree.

Just look at the lines...every experienced driver stayed on the outside. Verstappen even took the long route to get from the inside starting position to the outside, so did Perez. Alonso was on the inside, but blocked inside and made sure not run into Norris, both clearly breaked early and careful to avoid being in the same position as Piastri. Everyone else stayed away from this deadly apex, just look at the lines the Mercs and Bulls took, they had no intention at all to be more than 1.5 car widths to this apex. I think both teams had a clear agenda to stay away.

Stroll and Tsunoda were of course also there, so I mean...it fits that Sainz just stupidly cuts to this apex. But still...what the hell is Piastri doing there? The line did not make sense at all, he had more than enough room to not stay on the inside.

I agree that Sainz was stupid. But how does that help Piastri avoid it in the future? How does it offer anything constructive. I fail to see how that conversation adds a single thing to racing? That's just the drama and the show.

The conversation the team will have with Piastri will be about what he can learn from it not sit there finger pointing like some in here think is useful. It will be about how he can avoid stupid situations.

That is why his later quotes had changed to the fact they both could have driven differently, because the team would have spoken about exactly the things I have stated.

But your analysis of both the drivers is spot on in my view. Neither were smart even if Sainz is more obvious.

Well...let us start at the strategy, not at the debriefing:
As mentioned: I see it as obvious, that the strategy given to the drivers by both Merc and RedBull was "go to the outside, stay away from the apex whatever happens". This is the only right strategy if you look at the last years and especially if you have a fast car.
Both Ferrari and McLaren failed already at this point. I would have expected to see exactly this strategy on the McLaren...stay on the outside, get as early as possible on the throttle to get some slipsteam...and survive Kemmel with that drag...
So...why did both drivers take a quite narrow entry compromising the exit in any case into T1? That was not only wrong from the point of danger, but even more wrong in terms of car setup. They were a sitting duck on the Kemmel with taking a narrow line in T1.

Now...what should he do different...well, nothing. Since the last crash (Ver in 2019) the drivers managed to stay away from this inside line into T1. So I would expect that the next 3 years nothing happens again. Then they will forget again and someone will try again...but I guess it will not be Piastri, he has learned the lesson.

[PikeStance]

Please quote where I said he took full blame

You know that you're quote imagining now?

Here...

You've described an opinion if the events, to be clear. Piastri himself suggested he could have driven differently.

There were heat of the moment quotes which you posted and then the quotes he posted later after calming down and discussing it with the team.

This was is actual quote
“Looking back on it, I think we both could have done things a bit differently.”

You're totally wrong on what you think you remember I've said which explains your responses.

As you can see I am not.

But if you wish to think he has nothing to learn and adapt from that situation then be my guest to that opinion

You have a proclivity for logical fallacies. How many times do I have to say this? Sainz handle the incident immaturely, while Piastri did. Even if it is not explicitly stated It is clear that I believe he has learned. Facepalm.

[mwillems]

Please quote where I said he took full blame

You know that you're quote imagining now?

Here...

You've described an opinion if the events, to be clear. Piastri himself suggested he could have driven differently.

There were heat of the moment quotes which you posted and then the quotes he posted later after calming down and discussing it with the team.

This was is actual quote
“Looking back on it, I think we both could have done things a bit differently.”

You're totally wrong on what you think you remember I've said which explains your responses.

As you can see I am not.

But if you wish to think he has nothing to learn and adapt from that situation then be my guest to that opinion

You have a proclivity for logical fallacies. How many times do I have to say this? Sainz handle the incident immaturely, while Piastri did. Even if it is not explicitly stated It is clear that I believe he has learned. Facepalm.

So where is the part where I said he took full blame??? Iv specifically said they'd both do things differently but I'm focussed on Oscar, our driver.

This has become stupid now. I'm very satisfied that my assertions are logical and add value and I think past this point if you don't get it, it isn't for me to try any more, as now you start you misquote me and tell me the sky is green.

[BMMR61]

Can you guys accept you’re not going to agree and give it a rest? This is a supposedly technical forum and the level of technical debate is less than basic.

Can I suggest a new topic for discussion - what changes will McLaren bring that will make them competitive at the Dutch GP.

[McL-H]

Can you guys accept you’re not going to agree and give it a rest? This is a supposedly technical forum and the level of technical debate is less than basic.

Can I suggest a new topic for discussion - what changes will McLaren bring that will make them competitive at the Dutch GP.

New floor and engine covers.