F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

[wuzak]

And, btw, the 2014 PUs will have bee in use for 12 seasons when they are replaced for the 2026 season.

Doubtful the 2026 PUs will be in use for only 4 or 5 seasons.

[PlatinumZealot]

We can guess how many MJ make the car one second a lap faster on a typical lap and find how much bigger a battery we will need.

We put the desired number of laps at this extra pace and add it to the size of the current battery. Then divide by the desnity of future batteries to get the new battery mass.

To get the benefit over the race, subtract the swapping out time for the battery + tyre pitstop minus standard pitstop time.

I am proposing that to swap the batery is two additional seconds to a normal pitstop.

Formula e battery spec can be considered conservative.... Weight 250kg 54kWhr
Density 0.216 kWhr/kg

Formula 1 - weight 25kg approximate max capcity 5.4kWhr or 19 MJ.

MGUK boost per lap 4MJ. Based on AbuDhabi 2016 when Nico Rosberg's car ran without MUGk. Can I hazard a guess that 4MJ is about 1 second a lap in pace?

That means the new race allowance will be raised to 8MJ per lap. however lets assume that through normal charging with the brakes you can only deploy 4MJ every other lap. (The normal size battery cannot maintain it's full pace without a charge lap). So we can assume that this 1 second a lap gap increases compared to the current ERS. So lets say its like 1.5 seconds a lap. Then if we want to have this pace for say 5 laps. We need an additional 20MJ over normal battery capacity.

Current battery capacity is 19MJ.
New capacity is 39MJ

With same battery chemistry as 2014 the new battery would be 50kg heavy... However technology has improved since then. Let's assume our solid state battery is 10.8 kwhr at 0.45kWhr/kg density, and thus will weigh 24kgs.

Basically the same size battery can be used to get twice the capacity. And if the charging by brakes alone (MGUH is banned) it will be limited, and thus there is untapped capacity in the middle of the race and an advantage of a few seconds over several laps is to be had if the battery is hot-swapped in the pitstop.

[wuzak]

MGUK boost per lap 4MJ. Based on AbuDhabi 2016 when Nico Rosberg's car ran without MUGk. Can I hazard a guess that 4MJ is about 1 second a lap in pace?

2014?

IIRC, he lost the MGUH, which meant massive turbo lag and a loss of energy to use for the MGUK.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yes 2014.

The other example was Ricciardo in Monaco but it's not a good example.

On a slightly different area. The mechanical design..

The contacts from the car to the battery will be a very critical area.

Moreover there needs to be a small back-up battery to keep the car running if the engine stalls during the battery swapping.

[Zynerji]

Yes 2014.

The other example was Ricciardo in Monaco but it's not a good example.

On a slightly different area. The mechanical design..

The contacts from the car to the battery will be a very critical area.

Moreover there needs to be a small back-up battery to keep the car running if the engine stalls during the battery swapping.

What about a draw-through liquid electrolyte exchange? Like gasoline refueling, but wirh non-flammable gel and suction instead of positive preasure?

[DenBommer]

Yes 2014.

The other example was Ricciardo in Monaco but it's not a good example.

On a slightly different area. The mechanical design..

The contacts from the car to the battery will be a very critical area.

Moreover there needs to be a small back-up battery to keep the car running if the engine stalls during the battery swapping.

What about a draw-through liquid electrolyte exchange? Like gasoline refueling, but wirh non-flammable gel and suction instead of positive preasure?

You mean something like the nano flow cell?

[mzso]

Sometimes, I wonder if my humor is really that hard to understand. My point was -exactly- that it would never happen by being overly obviously ridiculous...

It certainly fell flat.

It didn't help that your point is wrong as well.
It doesn't need something that ridiculous. Some 3-4 times energy density improvement and battery swapping would easily make it functional.

[mzso]

The 2026 rules are set enough that 6 manufacturers are deep in development for their power units.

If there are changes it is more likely to be a tweak to the fuel flow, a change to how much energy can be recovered per lap, a change to how much power the MGUK deploys.

No chance that the batteries will be changed for ones that can last several laps, and certainly won't change to allow recharging or changing of the battery at pit stops.

The hot swapped battery idea has always seemed to me to be more suited to EVs than a hybrids.

We were talking 2035, and F1 sticking with ICE+ERS until then. Which is in no way set in stone, unlike you claims.

[mzso]

Yes 2014.

The other example was Ricciardo in Monaco but it's not a good example.

On a slightly different area. The mechanical design..

The contacts from the car to the battery will be a very critical area.

Moreover there needs to be a small back-up battery to keep the car running if the engine stalls during the battery swapping.

What about a draw-through liquid electrolyte exchange? Like gasoline refueling, but wirh non-flammable gel and suction instead of positive preasure?

That's a fuel cell, with a rather horrible fuel I never heard of.
And if you mean to use some gel for the anode instead of free air, its weight a performance will also be poor.

[Zynerji]

Yes 2014.

The other example was Ricciardo in Monaco but it's not a good example.

On a slightly different area. The mechanical design..

The contacts from the car to the battery will be a very critical area.

Moreover there needs to be a small back-up battery to keep the car running if the engine stalls during the battery swapping.

What about a draw-through liquid electrolyte exchange? Like gasoline refueling, but wirh non-flammable gel and suction instead of positive preasure?

That's a fuel cell, with a rather horrible fuel I never heard of.
And if you mean to use some gel for the anode instead of free air, its weight a performance will also be poor.

Ok. Seems like it wouldn't be beyond reason that they could engineer a superfluid to exchange. I'm not sure why swapping just the inside of the battery instead of the entire battery is so offensive to you.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yes 2014.

The other example was Ricciardo in Monaco but it's not a good example.

On a slightly different area. The mechanical design..

The contacts from the car to the battery will be a very critical area.

Moreover there needs to be a small back-up battery to keep the car running if the engine stalls during the battery swapping.

What about a draw-through liquid electrolyte exchange? Like gasoline refueling, but wirh non-flammable gel and suction instead of positive preasure?

Vanadium flow batteries? They are big and heavy and create sloshing problems though. It would be like another fuel tank.

Energy density is too low for F1.

[wuzak]

We were talking 2035, and F1 sticking with ICE+ERS until then. Which is in no way set in stone, unlike you claims.

No it is not certain.

It may move towards ICE only, or to full electric.

Or the 2026 PU rules may last 7until 2040. Who knows what the future will bring.

[wuzak]

Some rough calcs.

Current Cars.
Fuel allowed per race: 110kg
Fuel energy density: ~45MJ/kg
Potential Fuel Energy per race: 4950MJ
Assuming 50% efficiency, the actual energy used to propel the car is 2475MJ = 687.5kWh

2026 Cars.
Fuel allowed per race: 70kg*
Fuel energy density: ~40MJ/kg (between 38 and 41 MJ/kg allowed)
Potential Fuel Energy per race: 2800MJ
Assuming 50% efficiency, the actual energy used to propel the car is 1400MJ = 388.9kWh

* From statements by Pat Symonds that the 2026 cars could do a race with 70kg of fuel if front wheel recovery is used.


Assuming efficiency of 90% for an EV to convert battery to motion, that would require storage of:
763.9kWh based on 2023 cars and performance.
432kWh based on projected 2026 car and performance.

Hot swapping batteries would require 8 or 9 Formula E batteries and 7 or 8 swaps per race to get equivalent performance to the 2026 car.

If we take the upper energy density of future solid state batteries per the chart posted by PlatinumZealot, 500Wh/kg, the battery size would need to be at least 864kg. And that would be the cells only.

The 2026 cars are to have an ICE of 130kg plus a 350kW motor of 20kg (16kg plus 4kg for gearbox) and 35kg (minimum) battery enclosure (includes more than just cells). Less than 300kg when the fuel is included.

[Just_a_fan]

2026 Cars.
Fuel allowed per race: 70kg*
Fuel energy density: ~40MJ/kg (between 38 and 41 MJ/kg allowed)
Potential Fuel Energy per race: 2800MJ
Assuming 50% efficiency, the actual energy used to propel the car is 1400MJ = 388.9kWh

* From statements by Pat Symonds that the 2026 cars could do a race with 70kg of fuel if front wheel recovery is used.

Front wheel recovery has been been vetoed by the teams, hasn't it? Something to do with worrying that Audi will be much better at it than the rest thanks to experience elsewhere.

[Zynerji]

2026 Cars.
Fuel allowed per race: 70kg*
Fuel energy density: ~40MJ/kg (between 38 and 41 MJ/kg allowed)
Potential Fuel Energy per race: 2800MJ
Assuming 50% efficiency, the actual energy used to propel the car is 1400MJ = 388.9kWh

* From statements by Pat Symonds that the 2026 cars could do a race with 70kg of fuel if front wheel recovery is used.

Front wheel recovery has been been vetoed by the teams, hasn't it? Something to do with worrying that Audi will be much better at it than the rest thanks to experience elsewhere.

If this veto is true, I'm seriously reconsidering my Fandom of F1..