2023 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Aug 25 - 27

[RZS10]

Good to see that there's a concerted effort to stop fans from using them as the smoke they produce is highly hazardous to health and should under no circumstances be inhaled, some are even based on a pressed sulfur compound, here's excerpts from the safety instructions from such products:

"Keep your distance from the smoke at all times and avoid direct contact with the smoke produced. Prevent damage to objects and persons. The smoke can discolor objects. The flame can ignite a fire, be careful!"

"Only for exterior use. Do not throw at people or objects. Do not inhale the smoke. Contains hazardous chemical substances: solvent, potassium, chlorate, black powder"

"Keep a minimum distance of at least 4 meters to objects and people. Do not use in the vicinity of crowds or delicate objects as the smoke is harmful and can leave staining."

"Fire or projection hazard, Explosion risk, Wear protective gloves/protective clothing/eye protection/face protection."

Those who use them right in the stands expose those around them and themselves to serious health risks (which in many jurisdictions is considered malicious injury, here's an article about a case where the use of such a smoke bomb lead to a conviction) but inadvertantly also damage their belongings (malicious injury to property).

There's a very good reason why the usage of those is outlawed in most other sports and why Zandvoort now is making very clear they do not want them around.

(and yes this is kinda a repost from here viewtopic.php?p=1075007#p1075007 lol)

[Just_a_fan]

I sometimes wonder if the people responsible for organising the events do a rubbish job merely to get some controversy
and thus media interest. The equivalent of click bait, one might say.

.
There has been a lot of publicity in the Netherlands in recent days about bringing flares. It has often been in the news that it is forbidden to bring flares and this will be repeated in the coming days, according to the media in the Netherlands.

That's great news.

[organic]

Yes hopefully we don't see any, and anyone with flares is thrown out

They're vary hazardous as detailed above by RZS10

[ringo]

Good riddance!
I think fans should have a right to fresh air and not compromising their health permanently just to see a live race.
It was just silly in the first place for anyone to think that inhaling anything other than air would be harmless.
I cannot image how poor the view of the race would be for fans under the orange smoke sceen.

My predictions: If the race is wet 100% of the way, a Hamilton win. If it is dries at any moment A dominant Max win.
The break has been so long, I do not even know which car would be runner up to Redbull. Ferrari maybe?

[organic]

My predictions: If the race is wet 100% of the way, a Hamilton win. If it is dries at any moment A dominant Max win.
The break has been so long, I do not even know which car would be runner up to Redbull. Ferrari maybe?

When was the last great (or even good) Ham wet performance? 2020? Literally last wet race he ruined someone else's race because he mishandled his car in the conditions...

Hamilton was one of the greatest wet weather drivers ever - many performances over the years speak for that. Whether he still is, I'm not so sure; I think this part of his skillset has declined a lot. There are just too many instances in the last few years of blunders in the wet to ignore

I think there's a component of age in wet weather ability. The young guns don't have as much consideration of risk and of course risk can gain/lose you a lot of time in the wet. Norris Spa '21 quali springs to mind. Recently Max has talked about how he probably wouldn't attempt his overtake on Rosberg @ T3 if it was now, saying with hindsight he took too many risks in his early F1 years. I think that risk-taking nature probably decreases the more years you spend in F1 - every race becomes less and less significant in context of your entire career. Why risk your life for another pole etc

Anyway... back to the topic of the race:

At Zandvoort - a track with a fair bit of laptime to be gained in slow speed & a front-limited circuit - I expect Merc to be very strong. McLaren strong again just by default as they have a great car. I think it's likely to be RB - - - - - Merc/McLaren - - Ferrari/AMR. Ferrari have been stronger on rear-limited tracks with lower downforce all year relative to other teams & Merc have been stronger at front-limited tracks and their recent front wing upgrade has made them very competitive in slow speed (class of the field at Silverstone & Hungary in slow speed). Of course that's simplistic but just my guess

As for AMR I'm skeptical that they'll be able to fix all their woes with one fell swoop. Probably won't get everything dialled in on the first weekend anyhow

[Stu]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F4D3c7IWQAE ... name=small

I am wondering whether this track is an outlier in terms of limitations. The chart indicates that it is primarily rear limited (if I am reading it correctly!?), but also heavily left limited - presumably because of higher speed right-hand turns.

Back in the good old days the cars would have been running different compounds F/R & L/R (and possibly different constructions as well), and doing that at a time when pit-stops were avoided.

I’ll look forward to a great race, with such a tight field qualifying well will be crucial.

[haza]

My predictions: If the race is wet 100% of the way, a Hamilton win. If it is dries at any moment A dominant Max win.
The break has been so long, I do not even know which car would be runner up to Redbull. Ferrari maybe?

When was the last great (or even good) Ham wet performance? 2020? Literally last wet race he ruined someone else's race because he mishandled his car in the conditions...

Hamilton was one of the greatest wet weather drivers ever - many performances over the years speak for that. Whether he still is, I'm not so sure; I think this part of his skillset has declined a lot. There are just too many instances in the last few years of blunders in the wet to ignore

I think there's a component of age in wet weather ability. The young guns don't have as much consideration of risk and of course risk can gain/lose you a lot of time in the wet. Norris Spa '21 quali springs to mind. Recently Max has talked about how he probably wouldn't attempt his overtake on Rosberg @ T3 if it was now, saying with hindsight he took too many risks in his early F1 years. I think that risk-taking nature probably decreases the more years you spend in F1 - every race becomes less and less significant in context of your entire career. Why risk your life for another pole etc

Anyway... back to the topic of the race:

At Zandvoort - a track with a fair bit of laptime to be gained in slow speed & a front-limited circuit - I expect Merc to be very strong. McLaren strong again just by default as they have a great car. I think it's likely to be RB - - - - - Merc/McLaren - - Ferrari/AMR. Ferrari have been stronger on rear-limited tracks with lower downforce all year relative to other teams & Merc have been stronger at front-limited tracks and their recent front wing upgrade has made them very competitive in slow speed (class of the field at Silverstone & Hungary in slow speed). Of course that's simplistic but just my guess

As for AMR I'm skeptical that they'll be able to fix all their woes with one fell swoop. Probably won't get everything dialled in on the first weekend anyhow

I agree with this and your predictions redbul should win Mercedes and McLaren will be in no mans land behind redbull but ahead of Aston and Ferrari if it’s a wet quali/race I may expect it to swing more in McLarens favour (good tyre warm up/strong in highspeed) as much I’d love for a challenge at the front the only thing that can stop redbull is themselves at this point, they’ve done an incredible job with these new rules

[DDopey]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F3_CwNyWEAA ... name=small

No idea where you have seen that picture. Not on the DutchGP or cm.com site I got confronted with such a message. Only when you check the house rules. And yes, for me that makes sense, but I suspect a group of people will totally miss that.

[Chuckjr]

Likely we will see a general tightening of the field behind RB. Isn’t AMR bringing upgrades? Macca is monster fast in wet. Ferrari seems to be coming to grips. Merc will likely be quick.

Will be good to see how many woes AMR can resolve. There’s time to be found in that car. Would really like a continuing fight between Fred & Lewis for p3 in the DC. I hope AMR can deliver a better car for second half, but I’ve my doubts they can keep up with Merc development this year. Next year is another story.

[bluechris]

I try to understand how many here have the positive view that if it is a wet race RB in Max hands will not have 30+ sec difference to the 2nd? Suddenly Max who is one of the best in wet will forget how to drive in his home track infront of his local fans? Also no-one counts Ferrari which is strange really.

[Wouter]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F3_CwNyWEAA ... name=small

No idea where you have seen that picture. Not on the DutchGP or cm.com site I got confronted with such a message. Only when you check the house rules. And yes, for me that makes sense, but I suspect a group of people will totally miss that.

.
The text in my message is from the Autosport.com site and the picture is also but from Twitter/X.
Most F1 fans read Autosport and read the complete text on their site.
Van Leeuwen gave several interviews about this in the Dutch press last week and Autosport devoted an article to it.
There will always be people who haven't seen those interviews, but Twitter and IG is full of them. Flares = hot item these days.

[Just_a_fan]

They not exactly that dangerous. More chance of a car kicking a pebble up and hitting someone in the crowd than a flare.

They aren't designed or intended to be used in groups of people - they're a device for attracting help in emergency situations. Even the products for sale for non-emergency use tell you to avoid inhaling the smoke, not to use them crowded areas, etc..

When one sees safety warnings such as this:

Inhalation: Excessive inhalation of the smoke produced may cause respiratory irritation and difficulty breathing. Remove victim to fresh air, loosen clothing around airway, keep warm and rest. Seek medical advice/attention if symptoms persist.

Then it's fairly obvious that using such things in crowds is a really stupid and thoughtless thing to do.

[mclaren111]

Looks like rain all weekend at the moment. I'm always down for another wet weekend.

McLaren masterclass incoming?

[DDopey]

I thought I was an F1 fan but do not read Autosport. Some other media and this forum I do follow. However, I just hope they leave the Ben Pon grandstand alone so I have a clear view

[TNTHead]

They not exactly that dangerous. More chance of a car kicking a pebble up and hitting someone in the crowd than a flare.

They aren't designed or intended to be used in groups of people - they're a device for attracting help in emergency situations. Even the products for sale for non-emergency use tell you to avoid inhaling the smoke, not to use them crowded areas, etc..

When one sees safety warnings such as this:

Inhalation: Excessive inhalation of the smoke produced may cause respiratory irritation and difficulty breathing. Remove victim to fresh air, loosen clothing around airway, keep warm and rest. Seek medical advice/attention if symptoms persist.

Then it's fairly obvious that using such things in crowds is a really stupid and thoughtless thing to do.

In addition to this: the circuit is situated within a Nature2000 area with strict preservations laws. There were intense legal battles for the F1 permit (nitrogen deposition limits are quite an issue in The Netherlands). I suspect that the environmental impact of the flares (which could be relevant) was neglected in all environmental studies. So if there is wide use of flares by the audience, the circuit may face legal actions by environmental groups or the authorities. Another reason to (strictly) ban the flares.