TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

[AR3-GP]

Looks normal now. In line with what other teams are still doing

It’s a low downforce wing though so it’s already going to be on the minimum side of any deflection.

[AR3-GP]

This is quite a plot twist....

Sources are now citing "rubbery nose cones" as the issue. So the flap flexing may have been a diversion from the true funny business?

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-te ... 20boxes%22.

Red Bull F1 boss Christian Horner said: "It's not something that affects us, but we've seen a few rubbery nose boxes, shall we say? So, we'll see those get addressed, I guess, in Singapore."

The article implies that RB, Mclaren, and Ferrari are not impacted by the TD.

It also substantiates the Wache interview before the summer break where he said Aston and Mercedes were playing with deflection

[Sevach]

This is quite a plot twist....

Sources are now citing "rubbery nose cones" as the issue. So the flap flexing may have been a diversion from the true funny business?

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-te ... 20boxes%22.

Red Bull F1 boss Christian Horner said: "It's not something that affects us, but we've seen a few rubbery nose boxes, shall we say? So, we'll see those get addressed, I guess, in Singapore."

The article implies that RB, Mclaren, and Ferrari are not impacted by the TD.

It also substantiates the subtle clue from the Wache interview before the summer break where he said Aston and Mercedes were playing with deflection.

A flexible nose cone would allow the whole assembly to pivot.
With the Mercs characteristic of flexing even the part directly connected to the nose and not just the adjustable flap sure makes it seem like they are amongst the targeted teams.

[Stu]

Locked for a clean up.

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A TECHNICAL THREAD THAT DEALS WITH TOPIC FROM A TECHNICAL PERSPECTIVE WITHOUT IT BECOMING PARTISAN?!

Dozens of posts deleted….

Again.

[majki2111]

You could use "memory metal" wires weaved in between the carbon fibre strands. With increased temperatures the wing will be more flexible. Or even actively deforming.


Mod note:
This is pure speculation…

Thanks, Just fo refference if someone is reading this who also just graduated with no work experiecne, I can't remember we learnt this in our course. This is new to me.

One thing they use is 'bend twist coupling'

With composites, by playing with fibre angles in your laminates, you make structures that deform torsionally when you bend them(you can do other things as well). By doing so, you can e.g. make a front wing that twists the outer part under load, such that the angle of attack for the wing profile reduces.

But since the front wings are swept back, it will have this tendency to twist anyway. And gut feel I'd expect that the geometrical coupling effect is bigger than teams want. So they will all be playing with fibre angles to get the right amount of twist. Therefore I doubt the clampdown is for this.

I also read somewhere the suggestion that they were using elastomer fillets in the connection to the nose. But that would be a clear breach because the only possible intend of using an elastomer there would be to allow deflection.

Thanks. I could get grasp on this, I think. It could be understandable to me. Altought we didnt go that deep in composites. We just learnt the basics of composites. Those are detailed things and finesses.

I accually feel happy that I got impression that I could understand technology in this cars (from those posts) because I have no work expereince.

How do you guys know about this stuff?

[PlatinumZealot]

Well there are different kinds of memory metal.. I mentioned the one with temperature, I asmit that is extreme, but there are other shape-memory alloys that require a certain stress-level to deviate from a normal stress-train relationship. (superelaric and ferro-elastic).

The SMA component metals are legal I think... As long as you pass the FIA deflections tests and show no intention of creating a moveable aero surface it should be fair game.

Do I think Aston did this? I have no evidence.

Can be discussed in a new topic though.

[maygun]

I am not sure if this is the correct place to ask but as this flexi wing thing is linked with AMR23,

Is there any regulation related to the flexibility of elements of the floor especially for the edge splitters in the front? For instance, can teams use them similarly to the front wing (flex under high load to reduce drag?)

[Tommy Cookers]

You could use "memory metal" wires weaved in between the carbon fibre strands. With increased temperatures the wing will be more flexible. Or even actively deforming .....

One thing they use is 'bend twist coupling'
With composites, by playing with fibre angles in your laminates, you make structures that deform torsionally when you bend them(you can do other things as well)....

How do you guys know about this stuff?

in principle ...
bend twist coupling is a structural design matter not a materials matter
what's called the shear centre of the structural element must be evaluated
eg if an F1 wing was solid metal (or traditional metal structure) it would twist (under bending from lift/DF load)
(asymmetrical sections eg metal angle L twists under bending load - symmetrical sections eg channel U don't)

but eg composite fibre alignment can decrease this twist - or even increase it a beneficial way
(a famous example was the Grumman X-29 plane)
the composite structure behaving with anisotropic properties ideally matched ('tailored') to the application


SMAs are a separate matter
presumably some useful properties could be produced from unusual composite inclusions less conspicuous than metal

[JordanMugen]

Is there any regulation related to the flexibility of elements of the floor especially for the edge splitters in the front? For instance, can teams use them similarly to the front wing (flex under high load to reduce drag?)

I don't think so, but those turning vanes on the floor have a pretty thick minimum thickness I believe.

[-wkst-]

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... nterboden/

Michael Schmidt with an article about the TDs.

- Teams found ways that the floor plank doesn't wear out too much (insulating material between chassis and plank, or with fastening screws in the plank)
- That's over now with Singapore
- (As rumoured) AMR front wing twisted too much at the mounting point to the nose
- Toto Wolff said that AMR already had to go a step back and now it's interesting who has to improve as well and how important it will be for lap time
- Most teams say they are clear but in reality a lot of teams used the FIA measurements in Monza
- Hass has to change the rear wing, Williams something at the underfloor
- Rumours say that at Mercedes the rear wing could be in the focus, RBR floor
- anonymous engineer says that the effect of the flexi-wing-TD is bigger than the underfloor TD
- Because if you have to change the underfloor you max loose a bit of downforce
- if however the front winged flexed than the aero was designed for it, you risk not only loss of down force but also balance problems (AMR is not mentioned, but that's their problem obviously before summer break)

[ringo]

Aston pretty much is redbull DNA.
No evidence from me of course. But maybe they arent doing the trick as smartly as redbull did or have done.
But the front wing does have a very critical roll to play for the whole car, both at high speed and in the corners. Years gone by you could hear the redbull skidding at the front in the corners with the T floor regulation.
Maybe whichever team is doing the flexing now, the wing or the T tray or even the floor bellies are flexing on straight or in corner.
I would like to heat how this story develops. Would be very enlightening to learn what the engineers are doing now to create flex and which area they find is most impactful if flexed.

Another article ( looks like these media guys really read the message board):
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/wh ... 518559/

[vorticism]

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... nterboden/

Michael Schmidt with an article about the TDs.

- Teams found ways that the floor plank doesn't wear out too much (insulating material between chassis and plank, or with fastening screws in the plank)
- That's over now with Singapore

I hadn't yet read such a succinct description of what the flexing floors were. Supposedly this was already addressed last year with the floor deflection ram location specs i.e. measuring both with the rams passing through the plank and resting on the plank. What's knew with the Singapore tests in this regard?

I wonder how anyone deduced there was foam between the plank and the chassis. Not exactly easy to directly observe.

[dans79]

I wonder how anyone deduced there was foam between the plank and the chassis. Not exactly easy to directly observe.

Maybe the floor Wore through on track, and left some debris that someone picked up and analyzed.

[organic]

Info about flexible floors posted in TD039 thread, as this clampdown has been done with a revised version of TD039: viewtopic.php?p=1158409#p1158409

Key info about TD018 reported by AMuS:

TD018 is about fairing parts in the broadest sense, but is actually about the wings at the front and rear. The FIA ​​inspectors apparently caught some teams exploiting the regulations.

It doesn't affect the wings themselves, but rather the bending of the entire wing in relation to other parts of the car.

The front wing of the Aston Martin is said to have twisted too much at the point where it attaches to the nose.

Other teams have discovered rear wings that have deformed too much compared to the support or end plates. Everyone still remembers the wobbly wing from Alpine at the Canadian GP.

The latest Technical Directive warns teams not to take things to extremes. The FIA ​​is therefore banning wing elements that can flex or rotate in any direction relative to other parts of the fairing from the Singapore GP onwards.

Elastic fillings or carbon structures that twist at connection points or "soft" materials on the edges of the wings are prohibited.

Aston Martin has already had to make improvements to its nose because there was too much play in the connection to the wing elements.

Haas reported that the rear wing needs to be slightly improved. At Williams the focus is on the floor.

Wolff mentioned that Aston Martin had already taken a step back & it will now be interesting to see who still needs to improve. And how that affects the lap times in Singapore.

[Just_a_fan]

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... nterboden/

Michael Schmidt with an article about the TDs.

- Teams found ways that the floor plank doesn't wear out too much (insulating material between chassis and plank, or with fastening screws in the plank)
- That's over now with Singapore

I hadn't yet read such a succinct description of what the flexing floors were. Supposedly this was already addressed last year with the floor deflection ram location specs i.e. measuring both with the rams passing through the plank and resting on the plank. What's knew with the Singapore tests in this regard?

I wonder how anyone deduced there was foam between the plank and the chassis. Not exactly easy to directly observe.

This issue is quite easy for the FIA to deal with - mandate how the plank is fixed to the car. Anything other than that method - additional layers, clever fixings, etc., is automatically illegal and a DSQ ensues. Job done, move on. Of course, that would be too easy for F1.