2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

[peewon]

If I had to guess, the issue with the fast high speed corners is a floor sensitivity. Either the roll/pitching weakens the floor, or the steered tire wake disturbs the floor. This was an insidious problem for many Renault cars from 2017-2021. It had also been an issue for the Racing points cars before 2020.

I found it interesting that RB never went for scooped out side pods which in theory was really good for drag reduction. Then Ferrari, who championed the bathtub concept also ditched it this season and made a performance jump. Much smaller scoops and are still really strong in a straight line. Mercedes with no scoops and also very good in long corners. Mclaren also really good with much smaller scoops.

The pods probably dont have direct impact but maybe the aero philosophy/concept required to run them is counter productive to efficiency in some unexpected ways. Just a thought.

[AR3-GP]

If I had to guess, the issue with the fast high speed corners is a floor sensitivity. Either the roll/pitching weakens the floor, or the steered tire wake disturbs the floor. This was an insidious problem for many Renault cars from 2017-2021. It had also been an issue for the Racing points cars before 2020.

I found it interesting that RB never went for scooped out side pods which in theory was really good for drag reduction. Then Ferrari, who championed the bathtub concept also ditched it this season and made a performance jump. Much smaller scoops and are still really strong in a straight line. Mercedes with no scoops and also very good in long corners. Mclaren also really good with much smaller scoops.

The pods probably dont have direct impact but maybe the aero philosophy/concept required to run them is counter productive to efficiency in some unexpected ways. Just a thought.

I have a similar suspicion that RB are avoiding the tub/scoops/waterfall for that very reason. It would kill their aero efficiency or even the interactions of the DRS and the floor.

This is not very rigorous, but the cars that lack deep tubs tend to be higher up in the speed traps in Monza. You have to allow some deviation due to specific wing choices, but Williams, Alfa, AT, have no tubs. Ferrari has shallow tubs. Aston, Mclaren have deeper tubs. Mercedes is a bit of an outlier as their car has always been odd. RB just had a bigger wing than many. Aston removed a lot of downforce but wasn't particularly quick down the straights (like Ferrari, Williams, AT) and still suffering in the corners as a result of removing that downforce.

[peewon]

If I had to guess, the issue with the fast high speed corners is a floor sensitivity. Either the roll/pitching weakens the floor, or the steered tire wake disturbs the floor. This was an insidious problem for many Renault cars from 2017-2021. It had also been an issue for the Racing points cars before 2020.

I found it interesting that RB never went for scooped out side pods which in theory was really good for drag reduction. Then Ferrari, who championed the bathtub concept also ditched it this season and made a performance jump. Much smaller scoops and are still really strong in a straight line. Mercedes with no scoops and also very good in long corners. Mclaren also really good with much smaller scoops.

The pods probably dont have direct impact but maybe the aero philosophy/concept required to run them is counter productive to efficiency in some unexpected ways. Just a thought.

I have a similar suspicion that RB are avoiding the tub/scoops/waterfall for that very reason. It would kill their aero efficiency or even the interactions of the DRS and the floor.

This is not very rigorous, but the cars that lack deep tubs tend to be higher up in the speed traps in Monza. You have to allow some deviation due to specific wing choices, but Williams, Alfa, AT, have no tubs. Ferrari has shallow tubs. Aston, Mclaren have deeper tubs. Mercedes is a bit of an outlier as their car has always been odd. RB just had a bigger wing than many. Aston removed a lot of downforce but wasn't particularly quick down the straights (like Ferrari, Williams, AT) and still suffering in the corners as a result of removing that downforce.

https://preview.redd.it/monza-gp-qualif ... 23e3f5e06b

Which is counter intuitive as the whole point of the scoops was to reduce drag. I would really like to see the speeds through Parabolica. My guess is RB would be far and away the quickest, followed by Merc and Mclaren a little further behind. This is why Merc didnt hurt too much having the lowest top speed.

[organic]

If I had to guess, the issue with the fast high speed corners is a floor sensitivity. Either the roll/pitching weakens the floor, or the steered tire wake disturbs the floor. This was an insidious problem for many Renault cars from 2017-2021. It had also been an issue for the Racing points cars before 2020.

I found it interesting that RB never went for scooped out side pods which in theory was really good for drag reduction. Then Ferrari, who championed the bathtub concept also ditched it this season and made a performance jump. Much smaller scoops and are still really strong in a straight line. Mercedes with no scoops and also very good in long corners. Mclaren also really good with much smaller scoops.

The pods probably dont have direct impact but maybe the aero philosophy/concept required to run them is counter productive to efficiency in some unexpected ways. Just a thought.

Why are they "in theory" good for drag reduction? What theory tells you this

[AR3-GP]

This is a very crude drawing, but to me deep tubs should lead to more drag than no tub. The back face of the Aston tub is generating low pressure and that force is acting on a surface whose normal vector has a greater horizontal component than that of the RB design. So that is why I suspect it's inherently draggier.

Of course there are many other things going on like wheel wakes in front of the rear tire, but both cars achieve some form of rear tire management by virtue of the wide sidepod, so the only difference is the presence or lack of the tub. A RB style sidepod to me should generate more lift (less drag), and an Aston tub pod generates more drag (less lift).



This actually tracks somewhat with the known qualities of each of the cars in Bahrain.

[peewon]

If I had to guess, the issue with the fast high speed corners is a floor sensitivity. Either the roll/pitching weakens the floor, or the steered tire wake disturbs the floor. This was an insidious problem for many Renault cars from 2017-2021. It had also been an issue for the Racing points cars before 2020.

I found it interesting that RB never went for scooped out side pods which in theory was really good for drag reduction. Then Ferrari, who championed the bathtub concept also ditched it this season and made a performance jump. Much smaller scoops and are still really strong in a straight line. Mercedes with no scoops and also very good in long corners. Mclaren also really good with much smaller scoops.

The pods probably dont have direct impact but maybe the aero philosophy/concept required to run them is counter productive to efficiency in some unexpected ways. Just a thought.

Why are they "in theory" good for drag reduction? What theory tells you this

I dont remember exactly. Vanja and Shubh's video I think. Basically the wide shape helps to push the front tyre wake further out in conjunction with the undercut. The outside hump of the scoop acts like an endplate. Separates the clean flow coming from the front from the tyre wake and feeds it to the rear. The volume reduction also allows the air to pass through more cleanly.

[AR3-GP]

I dont remember exactly. Vanja and Shubh's video I think. Basically the wide shape helps to push the front tyre wake further out in conjunction with the undercut. The outside hump of the scoop acts like an endplate. Separates the clean flow coming from the front from the tyre wake and feeds it to the rear. The volume reduction also allows the air to pass through more cleanly.

I understand this point, but both RB and Aston have a "wide shape" which is managing the flow to the rear on the side of the sidepod.

[peewon]

I dont remember exactly. Vanja and Shubh's video I think. Basically the wide shape helps to push the front tyre wake further out in conjunction with the undercut. The outside hump of the scoop acts like an endplate. Separates the clean flow coming from the front from the tyre wake and feeds it to the rear. The volume reduction also allows the air to pass through more cleanly.

I understand this point, but both RB and Aston have a "wide shape" which is managing the flow to the rear on the side of the sidepod.

Right but its the outer lip of the bathtub thats further separates clean air from tyre wake. You can see how much wider the Ferrari sidepods get at the front

[diffuser]

This is a very crude drawing, but to me deep tubs should lead to more drag than no tub. The back face of the Aston tub is generating low pressure and that force is acting on a surface whose normal vector has a greater horizontal component than that of the RB design. So that is why I suspect it's inherently draggier.

Of course there are many other things going on like wheel wakes in front of the rear tire, but both cars achieve some form of rear tire management by virtue of the wide sidepod, so the only difference is the presence or lack of the tub. A RB style sidepod to me should generate more lift (less drag), and an Aston tub pod generates more drag (less lift).

https://i.postimg.cc/prJvFyhN/image.png

This actually tracks somewhat with the known qualities of each of the cars in Bahrain.

What about the air flowing through the radiators, down the underside of the water slide and inside the sidepod?
This air goes somewhere. The water slide just about follows the contour of the rad. The air will be blocked from flowing to outside, it will be forced to the center past the exhaust.



If you look down past the side impact structure, you can see the line of the floor dropping down towards the plank, not all the way obviously. That is reinforced by these pictures ...






You can see the skate at the back. That is where the floor is starting to rise again. The skate is positioned where the first red arrow pointing up from the left is in this picture.



Now that we know where the skate is and where the floor reaches the lowest point... In this picture, you can see where the water slide coincides with the floor reaching each lowest point. Many things going on at the same time.


With regards to the water slides. I think that at a certain speed the airflow flowing over the top of them is flowing faster that the contents and creates a seal, turning the water slide into a venturi. They then use the lower sections of the venturi to pull the air in. I'm Programmer, not a aerodynamics.

[KimiRai]

Also from Autosport forums: Alonso revealed in an interview yesterday that Alpine hurried up with the contract in the last moment, and during some hours he got both offers (Alpine, Aston Martin) on the table. And he decided going for Aston Martin since he saw more ambition there. If this is true, the idea that he chose Aston because he had no other seat is wrong.

[AR3-GP]

The fact that Lawrence offered Alonso a seat for 2022 is pretty interesting too.

[-wkst-]

Translation is a little bit unprecise, Marko means when ALO retires, not that they are looking for a replacement because ALO want to switch the team.

[diffuser]

Translation is a little bit unprecise, Marko means when ALO retires, not that they are looking for a replacement because ALO want to switch the team.

The translation also says that..."for when Alonso leaves the team" would imply it is his choice.

[makecry]

Eh. This Marko discussion isn’t worth it. Alonso will leave when he does, it won’t be at the end of this year. Lawrence isn’t looking to replace Fernando. It’s obvious Lawrence has wanted Fernando on his payroll for years and has reached out to sign him more than once despite Fernando being apprehensive about it. No real point of discussion imo.

[diffuser]

Eh. This Marko discussion isn’t worth it. Alonso will leave when he does, it won’t be at the end of this year. Lawrence isn’t looking to replace Fernando. It’s obvious Lawrence has wanted Fernando on his payroll for years and has reached out to sign him more than once despite Fernando being apprehensive about it. No real point of discussion imo.

agreed!