2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

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Juzh
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Re: 2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

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Farnborough wrote:
08 Sep 2023, 09:33
TFSA wrote:
08 Sep 2023, 03:07
Farnborough wrote:And why would that happen ?

More than ever before the onboard data acquisition and parameters to run the power units with very strict operational practice have developed during extended life of engine gearbox etc. That would still exist in onboard system as it does now but with out the ability or need of a team of "strategists" to then massage the technical performance. Just down to driver to sort it out or use the car more sparingly.
Last part is EXACTLY why it would happen.

Drivers are not engineers. In reality, they only understand very little of the car, and rely on a big team of engineers (not just their race engineer - race engineers have other engineers whispering in their ear during the race as well) to control how the car behaves. They also already have a big workload, and you can only present so much information on the tiny steering wheel screen.

It's not gonna work in practice. And even if it was, it certainly isn't gonna improve the entertainment seeing half the cars DNF with either mechanical issues, or because the driver didn't focus for a second because he had to figure out an issue. Even to this day, many teams face reliability issues - how do you honestly expect that to play out by putting everything in the hand of the driver?

This is not the 70s. F1 cars aren't just cars - they're extremely complicated pieces of technology. And you can be certain drivers aren't gonna drive the cars sparingly once the fight is on - it's not in their DNA.
No it wouldn't. Many items of control have been handed to the ecu in reducing driver load, gear change
? not sure what you mean with "gear change"

Farnborough
Farnborough
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Re: 2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

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Gear change was obviously manual prior to John Barnard Ferrari implementation of hydraulic automation/actuation of gearbox in response to paddle command.

Much more advanced now with full-time ECU control to "massage" shift times, throttle blips and anything else around this control feature. The driver just asks now and timing is out of his control in tbat command chain.

Watched a Ferrari 640 onboard recently, the gear changes are rifle shot brutal with a ricochet clattering through the chassis to flick even the camera stability ! But absolutely much finer control now with current soft/hardware.

Believe that the transmission failure of MB at Austria a few years ago was engineer software driven compromise on shift timing going too aggressive in unchange (that's what I understood from their explanation) and ultimately failed becsuse of this. Nothing could be done about it during race anyway.

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TFSA
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Re: 2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

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Farnborough wrote:No it wouldn't. Many items of control have been handed to the ecu in reducing driver load, gear change, anti stall, error handling (heard drivers report a reduction in power ? ) as ecu senses temp or other out of range, most is handled with software threshold on board any way. The analysis being remote to understand that area of functioning is then fed back from remote portal to ask driver to "slow down" "lift and coast" or use strat X in mode Y etc.

Part of why we see such procession now is that all the drivers can run full bore regardless of any constraints, the races get interesting when a driver has judge just how much he can contain characteristic in tire wear, brake temp etc.

They wouldn't habitually blow up, catch fire or anything of such dramatic outcome though.
Yes it would, and yes they would. These cars are gonna face issues, and the drivers need the help of engineers to not only discover them, but also solve them. You remember Max complaining, almost in panic, to GP about the clutch at the 2022 Hungarian GP? That's the stuff that would happen, and very frequently without engineers monitoring the cars and advising the drivers on what actions to take.

Your example with drivers simply being told to use strat X mode Y is ironic, considering that you're missing the exact point: They need to be told! They do not have the expertise or ability to diagnose and fix these things themselves in the cars and know exactly what to do. They need the Engineers for that. Buttons and knobs on a steering wheel isn't gonna do you any good if you don't know which ones to press and when.

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Sieper
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Re: 2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

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And they should be told. Remember when it wasn’t allowed and rosberg and Hamilton couldn’t find the right setting in Baku? A total shitshow that nobody should want.

basti313
basti313
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Re: 2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

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Sieper wrote:
08 Sep 2023, 11:01
And they should be told. Remember when it wasn’t allowed and rosberg and Hamilton couldn’t find the right setting in Baku? A total shitshow that nobody should want.
Well, but they simply overdid it. It was not wrong to limit driver advice, it was just too much:
- Of course they should be able to tell the driver that sensor A is defective and he needs to press switch B and C to deactivate.
- Of course they should be able to set the car into the correct mode if the driver is lost in the settings.

On the other hand, there is no need to tell the driver in which corner he should save the tire more. Or which deployment or brake setting to use.
The stewards are well capable of adjusting to this.

With the nonsense of overdoing the radio ban, they just killed a good idea to stop the processions and make the driver more of a deciding factor.
Don`t russel the hamster!

Farnborough
Farnborough
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Re: 2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

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TFSA wrote:
08 Sep 2023, 10:45
Farnborough wrote:No it wouldn't. Many items of control have been handed to the ecu in reducing driver load, gear change, anti stall, error handling (heard drivers report a reduction in power ? ) as ecu senses temp or other out of range, most is handled with software threshold on board any way. The analysis being remote to understand that area of functioning is then fed back from remote portal to ask driver to "slow down" "lift and coast" or use strat X in mode Y etc.

Part of why we see such procession now is that all the drivers can run full bore regardless of any constraints, the races get interesting when a driver has judge just how much he can contain characteristic in tire wear, brake temp etc.

They wouldn't habitually blow up, catch fire or anything of such dramatic outcome though.
Yes it would, and yes they would. These cars are gonna face issues, and the drivers need the help of engineers to not only discover them, but also solve them. You remember Max complaining, almost in panic, to GP about the clutch at the 2022 Hungarian GP? That's the stuff that would happen, and very frequently without engineers monitoring the cars and advising the drivers on what actions to take.

Your example with drivers simply being told to use strat X mode Y is ironic, considering that you're missing the exact point: They need to be told! They do not have the expertise or ability to diagnose and fix these things themselves in the cars and know exactly what to do. They need the Engineers for that. Buttons and knobs on a steering wheel isn't gonna do you any good if you don't know which ones to press and when.
You miss the originally made point, that more variable outcome would likely arrive from some level of restriction.

The almost cast in stone predictability that exists now with such vast technical support (trackside and factory) brings such a micro managed scenario of huge resource that it makes the outcome part of that vast back office infrastructure.
Most, here and across many social channels, there's complaining and reactions to this predictability, this is part of that outcome.

And, still no, they won't catch fire :D

Farnborough
Farnborough
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Re: 2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

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Also remember when LH was chasing NR Canadian gp, problems on both with rear brake temps and wear, both given advice to slow down to preserve, then ignored by LH and failed brake disc. That's one variability in out come a driver should easily be able to take on board.

Some practical limits are not contained with vast team resources, but it does produce variable races when they are encountered, in that case to the detriment of his race and points. Opinion asks for variable outcone in races, huge teams of advisors are specialists in taking that away.

We are just watching this and wishing for something else, and without artificial means to alter track position etc.

Cs98
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Re: 2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

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dialtone wrote:
07 Sep 2023, 20:01
It certainly isn't in the interest of the sport to have dominant periods.
Agreed. There's no good evidence the budget cap leads to more dominance than we had before. The same team won the WCC 8 years in a row with free spending, most of those weren't even the least bit close. Before that we had 4 years with another team winning everything. The only changes we got with free spending was when there was a regulation change. 2014, 2017, (2021), that's it. In other words, the evidence that the free spend model yielded more convergence under stable regulations is non-existent. The cost cap is still in its infancy, we have way less data on how successful it will be in the long run.
First year of budget cap and there's one team that is the most dominant ever, or at least in over 50 years. I'm not so sure it's a random occurrence, again the same happened with engine tokens and when scrapped everyone caught up to Merc within a few years.
The first year of the budget cap was 2021. The second year of the cap was 2022, which started out as a very close season before one team faultered. The third year of the cap is not close (in terms of the best team). So we see a picture where the team that does the best job wins, and the teams that make mistakes fall off. We also see teams that would never have fought with the "big 3" suddenly start competing with some of those teams. Now if a team wants to unseat RB they are going to have to do a better job than RB, which sounds an awful lot like sport.
Never made any fairness argument, this is a business AND a sport.
That's right, and fairness is a cornerstone of sport. There's nothing sporting about a wallet size competition. And there is no good business in it either, which is why the teams don't want to go back to that model. Having a more equal spend opens up the competition beyond a select few teams, which is a much more attractive proposition for F1 in the long run.
It's not that hard to understand... If you cap my spend I will be forced to spend more time before I catch up to you. In an uncapped environment I could redesign the entire car and copy in-season, in a cap I can't. Meanwhile the leading car will develop a bit slower but still develops plenty.
I think we've seen plenty of re-designs mid season. AMR 2022 comes to mind, Merc have changed their philosophy a lot. Beyond that I see no evidence that the free spend environment created a closer competition. Merc were dominant in 2014, by 2016 they won every race but two. The competition wasn't getting closer, the only thing that happened was a rule change came in for 2017 which reset the competitive order. What happened after that? The championship got successively less competitive every year from 2017 until 2020, then the cost cap came in. In other words, with a free spend the team that was winning kept outspending its rivals and kept its advantage, even made it bigger most years.
I have zero interest in your judgement of competence or incompetence of other teams. These arguments are useless at best, and every team said the same when it was their turn to dominate. Furthermore, once again, the engine token nonsense shows it's totally false, there is a way to allow competition that levels off and eventually caps development of the engine. Capping development from day 1 of new rules doesn't work.
I could care less what your interests are, your interests are not arguments. We have an equal spend environment and one team is flourishing over its competitors. They are obviously doing something better than the competition. They're more efficient, their innovation is clearly working, their correlation is working, they're doing a better job in a much more fair sporting environment. You not wanting to hear it doesn't make it not true. It's all sour grapes.

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TFSA
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Re: 2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

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Farnborough wrote:You miss the originally made point, that more variable outcome would likely arrive from some level of restriction.
That wasn't the original point. The original point by Stu on page 35 was that we should consider outright banning the live transmission of data from car to pit.

Banning and restricting means two very different things.
Farnborough wrote:The almost cast in stone predictability that exists now with such vast technical support (trackside and factory) brings such a micro managed scenario of huge resource that it makes the outcome part of that vast back office infrastructure.
Most, here and across many social channels, there's complaining and reactions to this predictability, this is part of that outcome.
That doesn't address the point in making: That F1 cars are too advanced to drivers being able to drive them without support.

I get that predictability can be considered bad. But this isn't the way to solve it.
Farnborough wrote:And, still no, they won't catch fire :D
We've seen plenty of cars catch fire since the new regulations started, despite the level of technical expertise available at the moment. K-Mag Silverstone 23. Yuki Monza 23 formation lap. Sainz Austria 22. Russell Australia 23. Albon Imola 22 (qualifying). Those are just off the top of my head.

And in many of those cases, the pit wall has to tell the driver to stop the car, because they can tell from the data that it's unsafe to continue, and the car has to be stopped immediately - something the driver might not be able to ascertain themselves. Without the technical staff being able to see the danger from afar, the driver might try to drag the car to the pits, when they in fact should be evacuating the car immediately.

You don't make a very convincing case.


Farnborough
Farnborough
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Re: 2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

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TFSA wrote:
08 Sep 2023, 13:17
Farnborough wrote:You miss the originally made point, that more variable outcome would likely arrive from some level of restriction.
That wasn't the original point. The original point by Stu on page 35 was that we should consider outright banning the live transmission of data from car to pit.

Banning and restricting means two very different things.
Farnborough wrote:The almost cast in stone predictability that exists now with such vast technical support (trackside and factory) brings such a micro managed scenario of huge resource that it makes the outcome part of that vast back office infrastructure.
Most, here and across many social channels, there's complaining and reactions to this predictability, this is part of that outcome.
That doesn't address the point in making: That F1 cars are too advanced to drivers being able to drive them without support.

I get that predictability can be considered bad. But this isn't the way to solve it.
Farnborough wrote:And, still no, they won't catch fire :D
We've seen plenty of cars catch fire since the new regulations started, despite the level of technical expertise available at the moment. K-Mag Silverstone 23. Yuki Monza 23 formation lap. Sainz Austria 22. Russell Australia 23. Albon Imola 22 (qualifying). Those are just off the top of my head.

And in many of those cases, the pit wall has to tell the driver to stop the car, because they can tell from the data that it's unsafe to continue, and the car has to be stopped immediately - something the driver might not be able to ascertain themselves. Without the technical staff being able to see the danger from afar, the driver might try to drag the car to the pits, when they in fact should be evacuating the car immediately.


You don't make a very convincing case.
And they "the great technical backup team" didn't stop it burning now, with all the supposed sophistication they possess. The removal of support won't CAUSE them to catch fire.

"You don't make a very convincing case" because it doesn't conform with your narrow view in reality.

I don't feel there's much to contribute here with such split nuance, well not that others will enjoy reading, the floor is yours.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

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Just_a_fan wrote:
07 Sep 2023, 08:15
PlatinumZealot wrote:
07 Sep 2023, 01:39
Sofa King wrote:
05 Sep 2023, 18:38
Does it seem like tire deg is very low this year? All of the top ten drivers this race did a one stopper. To create more strategic opportunities and excitement in the race, hopefully next year’s compounds/tires are developed and selected to make a one stopper more the exception and only viable when starting on the hardest compound in a dry race. That should create a more stark tradeoff between hanging long for a safety car/one stopper and a two stopper with softer tires to get a better start off the line
The teams have a way of racing to the life of the tyre. They will always do this unless the degradation or cliff costs more than a pitstop. (24 seconds). And Pirelli cannot go too soft for safety reasons and worse they cannot increase pressures too high because the drivers don't like the feel of it.

I proposed a solution to this problem... To make pitstops attractive by giving opportunities thru refuelling.
Why the desire for pitstops at all? Is it inherently good to have pitstops?
Yes. Pitstops aboundantly add to the show. Intriguing strategies. More things to go wrong.... or right. Gets the mehanics working out too. It's a real event for the fans. With the refuelling element it's also driving a lighter car at pace and the choice of doing this.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

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Cs98 wrote:
08 Sep 2023, 11:42
dialtone wrote:
07 Sep 2023, 20:01
It certainly isn't in the interest of the sport to have dominant periods.
Agreed. There's no good evidence the budget cap leads to more dominance than we had before. The same team won the WCC 8 years in a row with free spending, most of those weren't even the least bit close. Before that we had 4 years with another team winning everything. The only changes we got with free spending was when there was a regulation change. 2014, 2017, (2021), that's it. In other words, the evidence that the free spend model yielded more convergence under stable regulations is non-existent. The cost cap is still in its infancy, we have way less data on how successful it will be in the long run.
First year of budget cap and there's one team that is the most dominant ever, or at least in over 50 years. I'm not so sure it's a random occurrence, again the same happened with engine tokens and when scrapped everyone caught up to Merc within a few years.
The first year of the budget cap was 2021. The second year of the cap was 2022, which started out as a very close season before one team faultered. The third year of the cap is not close (in terms of the best team). So we see a picture where the team that does the best job wins, and the teams that make mistakes fall off. We also see teams that would never have fought with the "big 3" suddenly start competing with some of those teams. Now if a team wants to unseat RB they are going to have to do a better job than RB, which sounds an awful lot like sport.
Never made any fairness argument, this is a business AND a sport.
That's right, and fairness is a cornerstone of sport. There's nothing sporting about a wallet size competition. And there is no good business in it either, which is why the teams don't want to go back to that model. Having a more equal spend opens up the competition beyond a select few teams, which is a much more attractive proposition for F1 in the long run.
It's not that hard to understand... If you cap my spend I will be forced to spend more time before I catch up to you. In an uncapped environment I could redesign the entire car and copy in-season, in a cap I can't. Meanwhile the leading car will develop a bit slower but still develops plenty.
I think we've seen plenty of re-designs mid season. AMR 2022 comes to mind, Merc have changed their philosophy a lot. Beyond that I see no evidence that the free spend environment created a closer competition. Merc were dominant in 2014, by 2016 they won every race but two. The competition wasn't getting closer, the only thing that happened was a rule change came in for 2017 which reset the competitive order. What happened after that? The championship got successively less competitive every year from 2017 until 2020, then the cost cap came in. In other words, with a free spend the team that was winning kept outspending its rivals and kept its advantage, even made it bigger most years.
I have zero interest in your judgement of competence or incompetence of other teams. These arguments are useless at best, and every team said the same when it was their turn to dominate. Furthermore, once again, the engine token nonsense shows it's totally false, there is a way to allow competition that levels off and eventually caps development of the engine. Capping development from day 1 of new rules doesn't work.
I could care less what your interests are, your interests are not arguments. We have an equal spend environment and one team is flourishing over its competitors. They are obviously doing something better than the competition. They're more efficient, their innovation is clearly working, their correlation is working, they're doing a better job in a much more fair sporting environment. You not wanting to hear it doesn't make it not true. It's all sour grapes.
Mercedes dominance was driven almost entirely by their engine advantage. Their chassis was very good but was exposed on slower tracks. The next best team had a cast iron albatross around their necks in the form of a shoddy Renault engine, and no matter the chassis development, really didn't stand a chance over the course of a season. When they recieved a competitive Honda engine then they stole the show.

The 2014 to 2020 Mercedes era of dominance is impossible now. It's an engine freeze now. There is no catching up by developing the engines. It's all about chassis which make things much, much harder due to the budget cap ON THE CHASSIS. RedBull will dominate until 2026.
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TFSA
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Re: 2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

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Farnborough wrote:
08 Sep 2023, 13:41
And they "the great technical backup team" didn't stop it burning now, with all the supposed sophistication they possess. The removal of support won't CAUSE them to catch fire.
You're missing my point.

My point is that running these cars in a very stable state is already very complicated. Take away all the engineers helping with that, and you'll have cars DNF'ing left and right because the drivers are not up to the task of handling this on their own while driving the car.

Leaving aside all the, rather obvious, safety problems this will create, how you think this will improve racing is beyond me.


Farnborough wrote:
08 Sep 2023, 13:41
"You don't make a very convincing case" because it doesn't conform with your narrow view in reality.
It's a fine line between "Narrow" and "Sensible".

Sofa King
Sofa King
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Re: 2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
09 Sep 2023, 01:44
Just_a_fan wrote:
07 Sep 2023, 08:15
PlatinumZealot wrote:
07 Sep 2023, 01:39


The teams have a way of racing to the life of the tyre. They will always do this unless the degradation or cliff costs more than a pitstop. (24 seconds). And Pirelli cannot go too soft for safety reasons and worse they cannot increase pressures too high because the drivers don't like the feel of it.

I proposed a solution to this problem... To make pitstops attractive by giving opportunities thru refuelling.
Why the desire for pitstops at all? Is it inherently good to have pitstops?
Yes. Pitstops aboundantly add to the show. Intriguing strategies. More things to go wrong.... or right. Gets the mehanics working out too. It's a real event for the fans. With the refuelling element it's also driving a lighter car at pace and the choice of doing this.
I completely agree refueling should come back, but if safety is an issue perhaps in 2026 there be swappable secondary batteries. Another idea to consider is having DRS and perhaps push to pass allocated on a reverse grid basis.

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denyall
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Re: 2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

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With the reliance these cars have on technology they could easily make a device that locks the clutch out or otherwise disables the car if a fuel nozzle is attached. I don't believe refueling is any more or less dangerous than an active pit lane.

The ERS swap is a neat idea, like when I swap packs on my lawnmower

Reverse grid anything feels too gimmicky for me.