2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[mwillems]

Indeed, let's see what comes next, although from interviews I'm not sure this next update will help with drag because they haven't had time to look at it. But this is the 3rd floor iteration this year where they have been working on the geometries.. So I wonder why that is that they didn't address, unless they need to adapt the handling and chassis to be able to do that work item correctly.

But since Stella states the problem became worse after Austria which we know was a big sidepod and floor upgrade, then what you are suggesting does stand to reason.

[Dafnalina]

A new floor and sidepods. Wasn't expecting that much to be honest. Now I'm scared lol

[FittingMechanics]

I think part of it may be that Ganassi had option rights for Indycar, but not for F1.

Now Palou seems to be breaking the contract with McLaren because he sees that his path to F1 probably closed with Piastri doing well.

I hope that the team improves even further next year and that Palou regrets his decision.

Or he sees that OWard came to McLaren with the same F1 carrot in front of his face? And is today without title hopes in Indy and no hope at all on the F1 seat?

O'Ward doesn't have a super license - Palou does.

[CjC]

A new floor and sidepods. Wasn't expecting that much to be honest. Now I'm scared lol

Scared?

[Ben1980]

I think part of it may be that Ganassi had option rights for Indycar, but not for F1.

Now Palou seems to be breaking the contract with McLaren because he sees that his path to F1 probably closed with Piastri doing well.

I hope that the team improves even further next year and that Palou regrets his decision.

Or he sees that OWard came to McLaren with the same F1 carrot in front of his face? And is today without title hopes in Indy and no hope at all on the F1 seat?

I dont think f1 was really on Pato list when he went to Arrow McLaren. He was only part time in Indy, and wasn't getting anywhere with Red Bull. His performances on the other hand, have got the recognition. Though no superlicence

[SmallSoldier]

Rather insightful:

https://www.racefans.net/2023/09/07/mcl ... -2024-car/

Stella has changed his tune about bringing any 2024 ideas to the 2023 car.
He was against it a few races ago now he’s open to the idea if it’s feasible.

Also he says anymore upgrades coming are only worth a tenth or 2 so we won’t see a massive leap again

Regarding the time bump:

“When we see the gap that is still missing to be able to fight for victories, you would need at least another development as big as the one that we introduced in Austria,” continued Stella. “This is at the moment not in the numbers of what we will be delivering trackside in the next couple of races.

“I would hope that we could add another like a few tenths, but this won’t be enough to challenge for victories. But hopefully it will allow us to lean on podiums a few times before the end of the season.”

Also, it is confirmed that they will do a "chassis evolution" and redo the layout of the car. I've not idea how low the centre of gravity is in this car, but it will be interesting to see what they do with the cooling as they have a bit of space in the sidepods to play with.

This is what we were talking about the other day… There is plenty more time to be found from the current concept once they can work on the chasis… The current concept is limited by the chassis, they were forced to use last year chassis… By making changes to it, they should be able to extract more performance.

[mwillems]

Rather insightful:

https://www.racefans.net/2023/09/07/mcl ... -2024-car/

Stella has changed his tune about bringing any 2024 ideas to the 2023 car.
He was against it a few races ago now he’s open to the idea if it’s feasible.

Also he says anymore upgrades coming are only worth a tenth or 2 so we won’t see a massive leap again

Regarding the time bump:

“When we see the gap that is still missing to be able to fight for victories, you would need at least another development as big as the one that we introduced in Austria,” continued Stella. “This is at the moment not in the numbers of what we will be delivering trackside in the next couple of races.

“I would hope that we could add another like a few tenths, but this won’t be enough to challenge for victories. But hopefully it will allow us to lean on podiums a few times before the end of the season.”

Also, it is confirmed that they will do a "chassis evolution" and redo the layout of the car. I've not idea how low the centre of gravity is in this car, but it will be interesting to see what they do with the cooling as they have a bit of space in the sidepods to play with.

This is what we were talking about the other day… There is plenty more time to be found from the current concept once they can work on the chasis… The current concept is limited by the chassis, they were forced to use last year chassis… By making changes to it, they should be able to extract more performance.

Oh yeah for sure, the other day I was saying not that the chassis change won't happen, I think it will and I think the wheelbase will be slightly lengthened and as you mentioned the SIS points moved. What I was saying is that even if it was the same chassis or just some specific areas of the chassis that remained the same, it's still not so easy just to take parts from the new car simply because it has changed a little conceptually, and that is enough to make them not directly compatible without adaptation of parts. With the cars being so sensitive you could keep the chassis and still not be able to carry over parts if they are not compatible with the old concept/package. I think that subsequent to our conversation Stella did say as much, and then backtracked later to suggest they might be able to bring something to the 23 car lol

I suspect though that this will just be where there is very low hanging fruit with tangible gains or if they want to try something on track then they will adapt something for this car. Whilst I'm thoroughly enjoying the end to this season, it is a throwaway season for us.

[SmallSoldier]

Regarding the time bump:

“When we see the gap that is still missing to be able to fight for victories, you would need at least another development as big as the one that we introduced in Austria,” continued Stella. “This is at the moment not in the numbers of what we will be delivering trackside in the next couple of races.

“I would hope that we could add another like a few tenths, but this won’t be enough to challenge for victories. But hopefully it will allow us to lean on podiums a few times before the end of the season.”

Also, it is confirmed that they will do a "chassis evolution" and redo the layout of the car. I've not idea how low the centre of gravity is in this car, but it will be interesting to see what they do with the cooling as they have a bit of space in the sidepods to play with.

This is what we were talking about the other day… There is plenty more time to be found from the current concept once they can work on the chasis… The current concept is limited by the chassis, they were forced to use last year chassis… By making changes to it, they should be able to extract more performance.

Oh yeah for sure, the other day I was saying not that the chassis change won't happen, I think it will and I think the wheelbase will be slightly lengthened and as you mentioned the SIS points moved. What I was saying is that even if it was the same chassis or just some specific areas of the chassis that remained the same, it's not so easy just to take parts from the new car simply because it has changed a little conceptually. With the cars being so sensitive you could keep the chassis and still not be able to carry over parts if they are not compatible with the old concept/package. I think that subsequent to our conversation Stella did say as much, and then backtracked later to suggest they might be able to bring something to the 23 car lol

I suspect though that this will just be where there is very low hanging fruit with tangible gains or if they want to try something on track. Whilst I'm thoroughly enjoying the end to this season, it is a throwaway season for us.

I believe there could be small developments that could be translated from one car to the other, even though (as you mentioned) they have to work together… Maybe things like brake ducts and it’s periphery for example could be used regardless.

The best part is that the 2024 car will be an evolution of the MCL60, no guessing if they got the right concept (they know they do now), no compromises because the concept is not fully integrated with the chassis… And of course whatever amount of time they can still extract from it.

[mwillems]

This is what we were talking about the other day… There is plenty more time to be found from the current concept once they can work on the chasis… The current concept is limited by the chassis, they were forced to use last year chassis… By making changes to it, they should be able to extract more performance.

Oh yeah for sure, the other day I was saying not that the chassis change won't happen, I think it will and I think the wheelbase will be slightly lengthened and as you mentioned the SIS points moved. What I was saying is that even if it was the same chassis or just some specific areas of the chassis that remained the same, it's not so easy just to take parts from the new car simply because it has changed a little conceptually. With the cars being so sensitive you could keep the chassis and still not be able to carry over parts if they are not compatible with the old concept/package. I think that subsequent to our conversation Stella did say as much, and then backtracked later to suggest they might be able to bring something to the 23 car lol

I suspect though that this will just be where there is very low hanging fruit with tangible gains or if they want to try something on track. Whilst I'm thoroughly enjoying the end to this season, it is a throwaway season for us.

I believe there could be small developments that could be translated from one car to the other, even though (as you mentioned) they have to work together… Maybe things like brake ducts and it’s periphery for example could be used regardless.

The best part is that the 2024 car will be an evolution of the MCL60, no guessing if they got the right concept (they know they do now), no compromises because the concept is not fully integrated with the chassis… And of course whatever amount of time they can still extract from it.

Yes they probably could bring those more standalone parts.

Totally excited about next year, feels like we could have the best start to a season in over a decade.
I just hope they have plenty of time left to mine from their early season analysis of the gains that were available!

[BMMR61]

Performance at the upcoming double header will provide evidence that the new raft of changes does or doesn't work but it is exciting that development work is continuing in parallel with next year's car. Over past seasons we've seen different manufacturers fully cease development of any note in the second half, to the point where their competitiveness slides in order to concentrate work (and spending) on the new car. Has McLaren, by it's forced unusual season of re-engineering, discovered a new way of maintaining momentum, controlling spending, and developing the new car with on track evaluation? Or is it just a case of finding a good base for evolution without the immediate need for revolution. Just 4 months ago at Miami with neither driver getting out of Q1 or scoring points the position for the MCL60 and McLaren looked dire. Yet under Stella's management, Prodromou's aero work unleashed, it seems that the overall chassis wasn't terribly compromised, it was just disconnected from the aero. The latest reveal about some 2024 parts being able to be used adapted or otherwise, on this car, points to old MCL60(A) having a certain amount of parentage to carry forward.

Mwillems - you say this is a throwaway year now, in some respects it is both exciting and highly useful. We seem to be in the middle of a strongly evolutionary era for the F1 McLaren car, obviously helped by no significant rule changes. Which leads to the fear "what could possibly go wrong?" Answer Pirelli tyres.

[organic]

I think this unusual development weight towards the middle and late part of the season can be traced directly back to the brake issues in early 2022. It was said by a team member (maybe key?) that it threw their development plans out the window and that's why it took until France to bring the first major changes.. so they were a few months behind everyone else.

If there was no brake issue, the France update of the mcl36 probably would've come at Barcelona, the Singapore update instead at France. Consequently they start working on the 2023 car much earlier & so wouldn't have had such a late realization that they were going in the wrong direction with the floor concept.. meaning they dont launch the mcl60 essentially unchanged from the previous year.

[BMMR61]

I think this unusual development weight towards the middle and late part of the season can be traced directly back to the brake issues in early 2022. It was said by a team member (maybe key?) that it threw their development plans out the window and that's why it took until France to bring the first major changes.. so they were a few months behind everyone else.

If there was no brake issue, the France update of the mcl36 probably would've come at Barcelona, the Singapore update instead at France. Consequently they start working on the 2023 car much earlier & so wouldn't have had such a late realization that they were going in the wrong direction with the floor concept.. meaning they dont launch the mcl60 essentially unchanged from the previous year.

You are right about the 2022 debut brake issues being an ongoing influence on last season's underdeveloped MCL36. I don't quite follow your logic that the early commitment to 2023 led to the "late realisation that they were going in the right direction..." In fact I see evidence that there were early signs that the 60 was looking a dog in the simulation and they were looking at how to change tack on their concept before the end of the year. So it was actually an early realisation that they had missed the mark and the 2023 car proper started perhaps as early as December 2022. Being limited by both regulation and spending cap, the 60B was maybe under way physically before the "launch date". The introduction of a far better integrated aero with the chassis was made possible by the removal of the man who led the team to be replaced by a new engineering team structure - an overhaul!

So the Bahrain March launch date that produced the dud (which their modelling had already confirmed) was in effect replaced on June 30th at Speilberg. Simulations had shown a spectacular improvement in performance which was totally confirmed at Austria and Britain. So McLaren are now on an offset development path (relative to other teams) of about 4 months depending on where you set your points of reference. Incredibly the aero was almost entirely the only or at least the main deficiency and chassis limitations could be worked around effectively into late in the 2023 season. We have a pretty strong confirmation that the whispers about JK not allowing sufficient input by the aero team have turned out correct. The excitement at Woking well prior to the new launch date resulted in some friendly leaking to Mika Hakkinen who spouted the unbelievable, and now the incredible seems not far away. Sainz's defence against Verstappen at Monza is hailed as the closest thing yet but I would submit that Lando v Max at Silverstone was probably closer, and closer than Lando thought really true at the time. Post-race analysis showed that Max was pushed hard enough to start encountering tyre concerns. Suzuka looks like an ideal place to continue the Silverstone promise of closer encounters....

[organic]

If you bring your final large package at Singapore then your assets are not focused on designing the 2023 car as early as if you finish the final upgrade for France. So if they could've started a couple of months earlier thinking about next year, it means the "early" realization (what I referred to as late) would've been even earlier and they might have been able to launch the mcl60 with the new idea rather than relaunching the 2nd half mcl36 and waiting some months for the new floor/car philosophy

I agree that Silverstone was closer. And an upgraded car + Suzuka could offer something similar

[BMMR61]

If you bring your final large package at Singapore then your assets are not focused on designing the 2023 car as early as if you finish the final upgrade for France. So if they could've started a couple of months earlier thinking about next year, it means the "early" realization (what I referred to as late) would've been even earlier and they might have been able to launch the mcl60 with the new idea rather than relaunching the 2nd half mcl36 and waiting some months for the new floor/car philosophy

I agree that Silverstone was closer. And an upgraded car + Suzuka could offer something similar

Yes. I now understand what you mean by "late realisation". So you are meaning that if the sequence of upgrades in 2022 had concluded earlier then the point of realisation wold have been earlier. Maybe. But I think that the actual point of realisation that James had designed (another) compromised car and 2023 was going to be a disaster - I'm part guessing, part replaying in my mind some of the rumours of team disquiet - came as early as November. Some months were spent in internal politics, the "how did we get to this position?" before the dud was unveiled and JK wasn't, as normally expected, at the launch. He'd already gone? A week or two later came the official announcement "the car's crap, James has been relieved of his duties, Andrea is heading up a new management structure, and a series of updates will be implemented before a major update will bring greater competitiveness".

This is my recollection and interpretation. I'm intrigued by the Hakkinen revelation and the accurateness of the optimism which none of us would have expected to suddenly start producing podiums on merit. I think there's a sizeable element of trustworthiness in Andrea's statements, bearing in mind the development cycle is something of a "movable feast".

[CjC]

Sainz's defence against Verstappen at Monza is hailed as the closest thing yet but I would submit that Lando v Max at Silverstone was probably closer, and closer than Lando thought really true at the time. Post-race analysis showed that Max was pushed hard enough to start encountering tyre concerns. Suzuka looks like an ideal place to continue the Silverstone promise of closer encounters....

Agreed, that was arguably the closest any driver from a rival team had pushed Verstappen for a race win this season.

However Red Bull brought their heavily revised sidepods a race later to Hungary and in my opinion gained maybe half a second so restored their 6ths a lap advantage in race pace.

That what makes me think it’ll be a long shot for Mclaren or anyone to win this season in a straight fight regardless of how well the circuit layout suits the car.
Unless the floor and side pod update is another incredible leap in performance which isn’t what is being speculated- unless Haikkenen says anything this week.
Stella hopes the upgrade keeps them in the fight for the podium and I think he ruled that the update won’t give them enough laptime benefit to win races.

Referring to the chat about next year and development start times, I’m concerned (but not surprised) Red Bull are going to walk it again in 2024, not that I follow the developments of Red Bull but from what im aware they have only taken circuit specific updates and the one pure performance update to the sidepods which I mentioned before. So they’ve invested heavily their resources into next season car already.
Pierre Wache has already said that the 2024 Red Bull is a big step forward from this years car which has basically walked to the WDC and WCC titles.
The other 9 teams have some serious work to do over Christmas!