2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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LionsHeart
LionsHeart
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Joined: 09 Mar 2023, 19:21

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
14 Sep 2023, 22:32
LionsHeart wrote:
14 Sep 2023, 21:36
mwillems wrote:
14 Sep 2023, 21:09


Yes the team have confirmed that there will be a new floor and sidepod. I am very interested to see what it is that is different.

Also worth noting that through the past months that there was a lot of discussion between Aero and Mechanical being prime contributors to the low speed corner issue. Tomorrow will be wonderful to understand how much the Aero side of things can bring us closer to RB in low speed corners.

It is also worth noting that whatever it is about this car that makes it unpleasant to drive still remains. One can only assume that given all the aero changes and the fact the issue hasn't changed, that this must be something to do with the mechanical side and how it interacts with the tyres and track. I wonder how much that impairs the speed of the car.
Earlier this year I thought the problem was purely mechanical. But lately I’ve been ready to admit that perhaps it’s also a matter of the balance of the aero package at low speed. If it turns out to be a pressure gradient and equal distribution of downforce between the front and rear axles, then the suspension will only have a partial effect, while the aero body itself may have a greater impact on handling.

Remember, you wrote that how the upper flap of the front wing is unloaded at high speed and how this affects the flows under the floor? So, perhaps you are very close to the truth. We know that the McLaren chassis handles well in fast corners and is quite good in medium-speed corners. At these speeds, the front wing flap flexes downward, possibly optimizing underbody flow, while at low speeds, flexing the top flap back upward may not provide enough load on the front tires, as I think the rear end has something to do with it. It holds very tightly and it has something to do with the flows under the floor. What I mean is that in the phase after braking there is no adequate loading of the front wing.

Perhaps the rear axle is simply more stable in terms of downforce, while the front axle simply lacks enough downforce at the front. Is it possible that after the top flap returns to its normal position, there will be no increase in downforce due to the disruption of the air flow from the front wing?
Worth noting that at this weekend the new Technical Directive around flexible bodywork is enforced, the team also suggested it won't affect them. We will see tomorrow who felt the need to bring any new front wings or any other areas that might have been flexing.

As for Mechanical vs Aero, the mechanical in part needs to keep the car in the parameters of the operating window for the Aero, and both have opportunities to improve. But is it a question of what might they be able to address now in the aero because they can't address the mechanical without a new chassis? This is why I am interested to see just how much time can be made. If we are close to RB in slow corners this weekend we have a good indication.

The inability to get a good turn in during a high energy braking zone like at Monza or the need for a V shaped profile that the team speak of seems more mechanical.

Lando suggests that the way the car is driven hasn't changed at all and I think he refers to this behaviour, I think that side is mechanical and will be addressed in the next years chassis. But it is such an odd phenomenon, I wonder what on earth could cause it. It may well be excessive dive. Due to a combination of flex and dive, is the wing bottoming out? Do we need to keep a certain profile of the front suspension to push the car to an optimal laptime, but that this setting in particular means we have to compromise on low speed corners? I wonder if the car suffers issues at low speed corners that are Approached also at low speed, i.e. less braking energy and dive. if it still has issues this would seem to rule out dive.

Edit: What they might be able to address now was written as a statement it is, and not the question it was meant to be... is it, in italics.
I can't say for sure, but the McLaren chassis can't easily bolt into slow corners, as if there's always not enough grip on the front tires. This is clearly noticeable with regard to Red Bull; in some incomprehensible way, their entire chassis rotates around the front axle.

I have one guess. Does anyone here on the forum still remember Red Bull's trick 3-4 years ago regarding changing the ride height depending on the steering angle? To be honest, this element kind of should have been banned, but it’s possible that Red Bull somehow recreated this trick.

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mwillems
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Joined: 04 Sep 2016, 22:11

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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You'd think so if DAS was banned.

Another thought is that the way the car interacts with the tyres, that it needs a higher load to have them behave the way the car likes and to provide either the right level of mechanical grip or to provide the right platform for the Aero. Perhaps the V profile that we need to attack the slow corner is to throw the car with more energy into a shorter corner. Are we not able to control the behaviour of the tyres under too little load? This would relate to an earlier issue where the car was poor when off braking and off throttle. If so this could be improved with more front downforce.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

FittingMechanics
FittingMechanics
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Joined: 19 Feb 2019, 12:10

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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One of former aero guys from McLaren (now in Indycar) was quite positive when talking about Singapore GP - saying things may turn out quite spicy.

Hopefully that means he expects further step from the team. Seeing Lando is cautiously optimistic is great news too. He usually is downplaying teams chances so I guess they are quite confident that the car will work well.

I would love it if McLaren managed to break Red Bull perfect season.

LionsHeart
LionsHeart
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Joined: 09 Mar 2023, 19:21

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 02:18
You'd think so if DAS was banned.

Another thought is that the way the car interacts with the tyres, that it needs a higher load to have them behave the way the car likes and to provide either the right level of mechanical grip or to provide the right platform for the Aero. Perhaps the V profile that we need to attack the slow corner is to throw the car with more energy into a shorter corner. Are we not able to control the behaviour of the tyres under too little load? This would relate to an earlier issue where the car was poor when off braking and off throttle. If so this could be improved with more front downforce.
But only Merc had the DAS system? There is a different system here that changes the level of ground clearance when you turn the steering wheel, that is, when you turn the wheels. It always seemed to me that this is the norm and is connected with the geometry of the suspension and caster placement. Camber should have less of an impact on this.

Regarding your comment, that's a good question. If you look at Lando’s racing trajectory in Austria, then everything is not so simple. When the tires were fresh, he could afford a classic qualifying line, but when the tires were worn out he used a more V-shaped line in Turn 3. I remember we already discussed this, but even this one specific turn can already indicate that the wear of the front tires may be even higher than the rear, or this was due to the setup of the car and the lack of sufficient practice to select the optimal settings.

True, something similar happened again at Silverstone, then in the race when the tires were worn out, Lando also experienced understeer in turn 3, while Charles and Max sometimes had too much input, on their cars the rear was more nimble, but less stable, especially Ferrari. There they went from understeer to oversteer. Bad balance.

I'll be honest, I don't fully understand it yet, but I admit that McLaren is still lacking a little bit in all areas. Still, our drivers wear out their tires faster and begin to lose race pace faster. This was not so noticeable at Silverstone, but there the aero package was very optimal in terms of overall downforce loading and wing dimensions.

Maybe our car goes fast only in a narrow range of suspension settings? Then this would explain a lot, but it’s more likely in the thermal level of the tires and how to keep the tires in the working window, and this is more likely a reason in the general geometry of the suspension arms, rather than just wheel toe-in camber.

M840TR
M840TR
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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FittingMechanics wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 08:42
One of former aero guys from McLaren (now in Indycar) was quite positive when talking about Singapore GP - saying things may turn out quite spicy.

Hopefully that means he expects further step from the team. Seeing Lando is cautiously optimistic is great news too. He usually is downplaying teams chances so I guess they are quite confident that the car will work well.

I would love it if McLaren managed to break Red Bull perfect season.
Source?

LionsHeart
LionsHeart
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Joined: 09 Mar 2023, 19:21

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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FittingMechanics wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 08:42
One of former aero guys from McLaren (now in Indycar) was quite positive when talking about Singapore GP - saying things may turn out quite spicy.

Hopefully that means he expects further step from the team. Seeing Lando is cautiously optimistic is great news too. He usually is downplaying teams chances so I guess they are quite confident that the car will work well.

I would love it if McLaren managed to break Red Bull perfect season.
Are you hinting at McLaren's first victory of the season? This is quite possible.

f1rules
f1rules
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Joined: 11 Jan 2004, 15:34
Location: Denmark

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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wow cant wait for this

McLaren: Front Wing Endplate, Floor, Sidepods, Engine Cover, Rear Brake Duct, Rear Suspension Shroud, Rear Wing Endplate, Beam Wing

FittingMechanics
FittingMechanics
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Joined: 19 Feb 2019, 12:10

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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M840TR wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 08:46
FittingMechanics wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 08:42
One of former aero guys from McLaren (now in Indycar) was quite positive when talking about Singapore GP - saying things may turn out quite spicy.

Hopefully that means he expects further step from the team. Seeing Lando is cautiously optimistic is great news too. He usually is downplaying teams chances so I guess they are quite confident that the car will work well.

I would love it if McLaren managed to break Red Bull perfect season.
Source?

f1rules
f1rules
597
Joined: 11 Jan 2004, 15:34
Location: Denmark

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Image

Mostlyeels
Mostlyeels
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Joined: 28 Dec 2014, 07:47
Location: Canberra, Australia

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Quite excited to see the upgraded car in a live practice session for a change (Singapore FP1 is pretty convenient for watching in Australia). Even though it's likely to be a lot of aero testing.

MCLvamos
MCLvamos
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Joined: 30 Jun 2023, 18:41

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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This is what Haas brings over the course of a season lol. Development rate's been great this year!

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organic
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Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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A rather large upgrade!!!! Huge

I believe the car will win at least one race before the end of the year. Probably Suzuka or Qatar

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mwillems
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Joined: 04 Sep 2016, 22:11

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Hmm doesn't seem to be anything you'd think is guilty of flexing that has changed
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

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mwillems
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Joined: 04 Sep 2016, 22:11

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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organic wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 09:37
A rather large upgrade!!!! Huge

I believe the car will win at least one race before the end of the year. Probably Suzuka or Qatar
You're going all in :D
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

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organic
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Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 09:54
organic wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 09:37
A rather large upgrade!!!! Huge

I believe the car will win at least one race before the end of the year. Probably Suzuka or Qatar
You're going all in :D
Mika walked so I can run