2023 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, Sep 15 -17

[Tvetovnato]

True, I just watched those laps again, unless you're saying the gap info was wrong on the main feed?

I do not know what people are discussing here...some arbitrary gaps at some arbitrary points? At some lap +-1?
Do people understand that the distance between cars goes up and down depending on the speed they are doing? So even sector gaps are difficult to read...

There is one major point....the start finish. And there the gap was 1.9s after both have done 55 laps. This is when the feed starts to show 56...as they start at 1, there is no lap 0.

Then I advise you to watch again. Hamilton cut 0.7 seconds in two laps from 55 to 57, when Russell had not even caught up to Norris.

Not sure what you want to say here. Russel has caught up to Norris at the beginning of lap 57 and had a good pull on the straight to T7 already in lap 57. He had only free air till ~ the end of 56.
Which now comes to discussing single sector times, Russel had a much better last sector in lap 54 when both were in free air and a better lap 55...then an error in one sector in lap 56, it does not make sense to calculate the 0.7sec on a pace advantage. They were very similar on pace.
But what are we discussing here...you can not even look at the timing data, but try to conclude from the video...

He did not make any visible error on lap 56 in any sector, where Hamilton started to pull a tenth in S1, 2 tenths in S2 and another 2 tenths in S3 again. At the end of S1 on lap 57, Russell was still 2.2 behind Lando, while Lewis was back to 1.3 behind Russell. Hamilton’s main loss came in S2 on the same lap as he passed Leclerc for obvious reasons, then he lost a couple of tenths in another sector the following lap for whatever reason, But my point is that there was no real sign of the pace stabilising, it was starting to point to the contrary again.

[Astro85]

True, I just watched those laps again, unless you're saying the gap info was wrong on the main feed?

I do not know what people are discussing here...some arbitrary gaps at some arbitrary points? At some lap +-1?
Do people understand that the distance between cars goes up and down depending on the speed they are doing? So even sector gaps are difficult to read...

There is one major point....the start finish. And there the gap was 1.9s after both have done 55 laps. This is when the feed starts to show 56...as they start at 1, there is no lap 0.

Then I advise you to watch again. Hamilton cut 0.7 seconds in two laps from 55 to 57, when Russell had not even caught up to Norris.

Not sure what you want to say here. Russel has caught up to Norris at the beginning of lap 57 and had a good pull on the straight to T7 already in lap 57. He had only free air till ~ the end of 56.
Which now comes to discussing single sector times, Russel had a much better last sector in lap 54 when both were in free air and a better lap 55...then an error in one sector in lap 56, it does not make sense to calculate the 0.7sec on a pace advantage. They were very similar on pace.
But what are we discussing here...you can not even look at the timing data, but try to conclude from the video...

He did not make any visible error on lap 56 in any sector, where Hamilton started to pull a tenth in S1, 2 tenths in S2 and another 2 tenths in S3 again. At the end of S1 on lap 57, Russell was still 2.2 behind Lando, while Lewis was back to 1.3 behind Russell. Hamilton’s main loss came in S2 on the same lap as he passed Leclerc for obvious reasons, then he lost a couple of tenths in another sector the following lap for whatever reason, But my point is that there was no real sign of the pace stabilising, it was starting to point to the contrary again.

He lost 7.5 tenths in two laps, one being the lap he passed Charles and the lap after.

[Xero]

Feels like Lando did get lucky with Ham giving the place back, he was in control and past Lando.

Russell ran him off the road so he accelerated away and round the bollard, but was not carrying too much speed in the corner for the Norris overtake.

LH never planned to make corner... Once a cheater always a cheater...

Well he clearly did make it as demonstrated by the three videos But even so, your discussing the Russell pass

He's under control made the turn, no lockup, pass on Lando was complete. The he is attacking Russell, had no space and he needed to give the place to Russell.



Sometimes we need to put bias aside and admit we got lucky cos we sure as hell bitch when it goes the other way!

Lewis did pass Lando cleanly, but by going off track he didn't have the opportunity to demonstrate a defense of the position, so had to give the position back. Fortunate yes, but no question in my mind it was correct.

[Tvetovnato]

I do not know what people are discussing here...some arbitrary gaps at some arbitrary points? At some lap +-1?
Do people understand that the distance between cars goes up and down depending on the speed they are doing? So even sector gaps are difficult to read...

There is one major point....the start finish. And there the gap was 1.9s after both have done 55 laps. This is when the feed starts to show 56...as they start at 1, there is no lap 0.



Not sure what you want to say here. Russel has caught up to Norris at the beginning of lap 57 and had a good pull on the straight to T7 already in lap 57. He had only free air till ~ the end of 56.
Which now comes to discussing single sector times, Russel had a much better last sector in lap 54 when both were in free air and a better lap 55...then an error in one sector in lap 56, it does not make sense to calculate the 0.7sec on a pace advantage. They were very similar on pace.
But what are we discussing here...you can not even look at the timing data, but try to conclude from the video...

He did not make any visible error on lap 56 in any sector, where Hamilton started to pull a tenth in S1, 2 tenths in S2 and another 2 tenths in S3 again. At the end of S1 on lap 57, Russell was still 2.2 behind Lando, while Lewis was back to 1.3 behind Russell. Hamilton’s main loss came in S2 on the same lap as he passed Leclerc for obvious reasons, then he lost a couple of tenths in another sector the following lap for whatever reason, But my point is that there was no real sign of the pace stabilising, it was starting to point to the contrary again.

He lost 7.5 tenths in two laps, one being the lap he passed Charles and the lap after.

So one last attempt. On lap 56, Hamilton did a 36.4 again. Something that George was able to do only once in that stint, which was on his second lap of the stint, around the time he likely cooked his tyres. On lap 56, he had all the possibility to do a lap time like that if he could, and definitely would have because time was of the essence to say the least. Lap 55 was also a clear lap for Russell where he could only muster a 36.9. So still nowhere near the pace Hamilton was still able to do when he got properly back into it after passing Leclerc.

[Astro85]

He did not make any visible error on lap 56 in any sector, where Hamilton started to pull a tenth in S1, 2 tenths in S2 and another 2 tenths in S3 again. At the end of S1 on lap 57, Russell was still 2.2 behind Lando, while Lewis was back to 1.3 behind Russell. Hamilton’s main loss came in S2 on the same lap as he passed Leclerc for obvious reasons, then he lost a couple of tenths in another sector the following lap for whatever reason, But my point is that there was no real sign of the pace stabilising, it was starting to point to the contrary again.

He lost 7.5 tenths in two laps, one being the lap he passed Charles and the lap after.

So one last attempt. On lap 56, Hamilton did a 36.4 again. Something that George was able to do only once in that stint, which was on his second lap of the stint, around the time he likely cooked his tyres. On lap 56, he had all the possibility to do a lap time like that if he could, and definitely would have because time was of the essence to say the least. Lap 55 was also a clear lap for Russell where he could only muster a 36.9. So still nowhere near the pace Hamilton was still able to do when he got properly back into it after passing Leclerc.

I understand but you can't wish away those 7.5 tenths he lost in the space of two laps. Had he not lost that ground he may have been able to gain DRS on Russell just before Russell caught up with Norris.

[Tvetovnato]

He lost 7.5 tenths in two laps, one being the lap he passed Charles and the lap after.

So one last attempt. On lap 56, Hamilton did a 36.4 again. Something that George was able to do only once in that stint, which was on his second lap of the stint, around the time he likely cooked his tyres. On lap 56, he had all the possibility to do a lap time like that if he could, and definitely would have because time was of the essence to say the least. Lap 55 was also a clear lap for Russell where he could only muster a 36.9. So still nowhere near the pace Hamilton was still able to do when he got properly back into it after passing Leclerc.

I understand but you can't wish away those 7.5 tenths he lost in the space of two laps. Had he not lost that ground he may have been able to gain DRS on Russell just before Russell caught up with Norris.

It’s fairly obvious that those laps were outliers in Hamilton’s stint, and the first lap being heavily influenced by passing Lerlerc. Him being back to his normal stint pace a lap or so clearly shows he still had loads of pace over George, which I know is impossible for you to admit.

[mwillems]

LH never planned to make corner... Once a cheater always a cheater...

Well he clearly did make it as demonstrated by the three videos But even so, your discussing the Russell pass

He's under control made the turn, no lockup, pass on Lando was complete. The he is attacking Russell, had no space and he needed to give the place to Russell.



Sometimes we need to put bias aside and admit we got lucky cos we sure as hell bitch when it goes the other way!

Lewis did pass Lando cleanly, but by going off track he didn't have the opportunity to demonstrate a defense of the position, so had to give the position back. Fortunate yes, but no question in my mind it was correct.

That's an interesting one. The FIA Driver Standards Guideline doesn't mention it though, just mentions you have to demonstrate being capable of making the corner in the white lines. Being capable is key. Here he did demonstrate that, but was run off the road.

Do you have links to this rule?

[Spoutnik]

https://x.com/FDataAnalysis/status/1703 ... 13005?s=20

[Astro85]

So one last attempt. On lap 56, Hamilton did a 36.4 again. Something that George was able to do only once in that stint, which was on his second lap of the stint, around the time he likely cooked his tyres. On lap 56, he had all the possibility to do a lap time like that if he could, and definitely would have because time was of the essence to say the least. Lap 55 was also a clear lap for Russell where he could only muster a 36.9. So still nowhere near the pace Hamilton was still able to do when he got properly back into it after passing Leclerc.

I understand but you can't wish away those 7.5 tenths he lost in the space of two laps. Had he not lost that ground he may have been able to gain DRS on Russell just before Russell caught up with Norris.

It’s fairly obvious that those laps were outliers in Hamilton’s stint, and the first lap being heavily influenced by passing Lerlerc. Him being back to his normal stint pace a lap or so clearly shows he still had loads of pace over George, which I know is impossible for you to admit.

Outliers still have an impact, he also only lapped just over a tenth faster on lap 57, another impactful lap when you're trying to make a pass.

[101FlyingDutchman]

Well he clearly did make it as demonstrated by the three videos But even so, your discussing the Russell pass

He's under control made the turn, no lockup, pass on Lando was complete. The he is attacking Russell, had no space and he needed to give the place to Russell.



Sometimes we need to put bias aside and admit we got lucky cos we sure as hell bitch when it goes the other way!

Lewis did pass Lando cleanly, but by going off track he didn't have the opportunity to demonstrate a defense of the position, so had to give the position back. Fortunate yes, but no question in my mind it was correct.

That's an interesting one. The FIA Driver Standards Guideline doesn't mention it though, just mentions you have to demonstrate being capable of making the corner in the white lines. Being capable is key. Here he did demonstrate that, but was run off the road.

Do you have links to this rule?

Anyone can bang it around the outside but there clearly was no space to slot in. So he simply then planted it through the escape road. Yes he could have made the corner IF no other car was there or there was space. Except there wasn’t. Lando was behind RUS. The only option would have been for Lewis to brake hard to try and keep it on track but that would obviously result in a disaster for him so escape road it was.
Impressive braking at heavy weight from him but he steered the car into a dead end. So he bailed. Clearly not an overtake on track hence the positions given back

[mwillems]

Lewis did pass Lando cleanly, but by going off track he didn't have the opportunity to demonstrate a defense of the position, so had to give the position back. Fortunate yes, but no question in my mind it was correct.

That's an interesting one. The FIA Driver Standards Guideline doesn't mention it though, just mentions you have to demonstrate being capable of making the corner in the white lines. Being capable is key. Here he did demonstrate that, but was run off the road.

Do you have links to this rule?

Anyone can bang it around the outside but there clearly was no space to slot in. So he simply then planted it through the escape road. Yes he could have made the corner IF no other car was there or there was space. Except there wasn’t. Lando was behind RUS. The only option would have been for Lewis to brake hard to try and keep it on track but that would obviously result in a disaster for him so escape road it was.
Impressive braking at heavy weight from him but he steered the car into a dead end. So he bailed. Clearly not an overtake on track hence the positions given back

But he did slot in, he was subsequently pushed out by Russell who had the ability to leave space.

It's an interesting one because when do you say the pass is done? For me, the pass on Norris looks complete and there is no doubt he did and was able to keep the car on track and pointing the right way, he'd passed the apex and had done the work turning the car and was travelling no faster than those around him. If Russell had followed the rules and left a cars width for Hamilton then it is slam dunk he'd pass both.

So if the driver forces you off track after you turned in and had your car at the same speed as other drivers and had the car alongside the other car in front, the pass you made before is also null and void?

It's odd because it doesn't look like 2 passes to me they are separate passes. What's the gap, what would make the pass OK?

if it's in rules then sure, but the only rule in driver guidelines here is to give back an advantage gained, but having made the corner and passed the apex and started its exit pointing the right way, it seems to demonstrate that his going off was not to do with entry or failing to make the apex but another driver breaching the rules, therefore there was no advantage gained apart from passing Russell off track.

[astralx]

I understand but you can't wish away those 7.5 tenths he lost in the space of two laps. Had he not lost that ground he may have been able to gain DRS on Russell just before Russell caught up with Norris.

It’s fairly obvious that those laps were outliers in Hamilton’s stint, and the first lap being heavily influenced by passing Lerlerc. Him being back to his normal stint pace a lap or so clearly shows he still had loads of pace over George, which I know is impossible for you to admit.

Outliers still have an impact, he also only lapped just over a tenth faster on lap 57, another impactful lap when you're trying to make a pass.

those slower laps were tyremanagment...not to cook tyres like Russell did....

[Darth-Piekus]

Why are we debating this. The stewards deemed that Lewis had to give the position back to Lando after cutting the chicane according to their data. How can we decide differently if we don't have enough evidence?

[mwillems]

Why are we debating this. The stewards deemed that Lewis had to give the position back to Lando after cutting the chicane according to their data. How can we decide differently if we don't have enough evidence?

Because it's a forum where we can discuss things amicably without being policed by people with nothing sensible to add!

Or supposed to be.

There's is tons of footage for people to form an opinion and discuss and because someone things it is worth discussing the fine line. And here's the crazy bit, people who want to get involved and discuss can, and those that don't can stay out, and if people aren't interested the discussion will peter out! Seriously, with some of the tripe you put in here why are you now trying to pick up some sort of censorship role? Censor yourself.

But please don't ask questions like "if Zak Brown was wearing red Shoes, and we qualified 3rd, but then he was wearing green shoes and qualified 10th, should he never wear green shoes again?"

[dans79]

It’s fairly obvious that those laps were outliers in Hamilton’s stint, and the first lap being heavily influenced by passing Lerlerc. Him being back to his normal stint pace a lap or so clearly shows he still had loads of pace over George, which I know is impossible for you to admit.

Outliers still have an impact, he also only lapped just over a tenth faster on lap 57, another impactful lap when you're trying to make a pass.

those slower laps were tyremanagment...not to cook tyres like Russell did....

exactly, it seems some people think you should have your nose shoved under the gearbox of the person in front, and it you don't it means you have no pace.....