2023 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, Sep 15 -17

[mwillems]

"In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken"

Rules on overtaking on the inside, which this had become.

He had over half his car next to Russell.

[the EDGE]

But this is situation specific, everyone else wasn't pushed off track in defence of a potential overtake.

Correct… because everyone else made sure they wasn’t in that position, by slowing down and falling-in behind the car in front, Lewis knew Russell would force him wide and knew he could go off-track, he did so, he gained an advantage on Lando by doing so, he had to give the place back

Had he of slowed and fell in behind Russell, Lando would have had the chance to fight for the position

But by the rules Russel should give him a cars width, no?

Only if he was far-enough along side going into the corner, which he wasn’t

[Astro85]

yes, but overall his last stint was much better then Russells ,

Who said otherwise, just didn't have enough to make the pass and that's really all that matters. Russell gifted him the podium in the end but his poor qualifying cost him a shot at the win.

yes, he didnt had enough, thats true, to pass you need on this track much bigger delta( 1,5s or even more) or a gift....

He knows he messed up, a good qualifying and he could have very well won that, let's hope he sorts his qualifying struggles for Suzuka.

[mwillems]

Correct… because everyone else made sure they wasn’t in that position, by slowing down and falling-in behind the car in front, Lewis knew Russell would force him wide and knew he could go off-track, he did so, he gained an advantage on Lando by doing so, he had to give the place back

Had he of slowed and fell in behind Russell, Lando would have had the chance to fight for the position

But by the rules Russel should give him a cars width, no?

Only if he was far-enough along side going into the corner, which he wasn’t

They were approaching the next apex and well past the previous is my view of it, but I suppose that is where the line might be.

Overtaking on the outside suggests you need the car the be in front of the defending car. Overtaking on the inside deems you just need the front wheels alongside.

So I guess when I look at this I see them past and exiting that corner and coming in to the next with Hamilton on the inside, the move to the right by Ham is made just before the apex of the next corner with Russell closing off his move into the next corner.

I don't think it is as clear cut as some want to think, and still don't agree with the decision even though I'm a Lando fan, but I can at least understand it in detail having had some sensible discussion.

It wasn't about speed and never was about speed, IT WAS ABOUT WHETHER HE WAS ON THE INSIDE OR OUTSIDE and who owned the space. For those that need caps to make a point And their positioning inbetween two corners crates a gray area.

However, I still don't think that should have had anything to do with the move on Lando.

[101FlyingDutchman]

But by the rules Russel should give him a cars width, no?

Only if he was far-enough along side going into the corner, which he wasn’t

They were approaching the next apex and well past the previous is my view of it, but I suppose that is where the line might be.

Overtaking on the outside suggests you need the car the be in front of the defending car. Overtaking on the inside deems you just need the front wheels alongside.

So I guess when I look at this I see them past and exiting that corner and coming in to the next with Hamilton on the inside, the move to the right by Ham is made just before the apex of the next corner with Russell closing off his move into the next corner.

I don't think it is as clear cut as some want to think, and still don't agree with the decision even though I'm a Lando fan, but I can at least understand it in detail having had some sensible discussion.

It wasn't about speed and never was about speed, IT WAS ABOUT WHETHER HE WAS ON THE INSIDE OR OUTSIDE and who owned the space. For those that need caps to make a point And their positioning inbetween two corners crates a gray area.

However, I still don't think that should have had anything to do with the move on Lando.

You can’t just divebomb and expect the car who’s travelling on the fastest line of the apex to all of a sudden move left to accommodate. He’s driving into a disappearing wedge and judging by how quickly he went full gas down the escape road he knew it very early on.

[mwillems]

Only if he was far-enough along side going into the corner, which he wasn’t

They were approaching the next apex and well past the previous is my view of it, but I suppose that is where the line might be.

Overtaking on the outside suggests you need the car the be in front of the defending car. Overtaking on the inside deems you just need the front wheels alongside.

So I guess when I look at this I see them past and exiting that corner and coming in to the next with Hamilton on the inside, the move to the right by Ham is made just before the apex of the next corner with Russell closing off his move into the next corner.

I don't think it is as clear cut as some want to think, and still don't agree with the decision even though I'm a Lando fan, but I can at least understand it in detail having had some sensible discussion.

It wasn't about speed and never was about speed, IT WAS ABOUT WHETHER HE WAS ON THE INSIDE OR OUTSIDE and who owned the space. For those that need caps to make a point And their positioning inbetween two corners crates a gray area.

However, I still don't think that should have had anything to do with the move on Lando.

You can’t just divebomb and expect the car who’s travelling on the fastest line of the apex to all of a sudden move left to accommodate. He’s driving into a disappearing wedge and judging by how quickly he went full gas down the escape road he knew it very early on.

I felt he was almost alongside and in control in the first turn so didn't consider it divebombing as such. If he was half a meter further forward on that move it would be his space, that's how close the margin was.

But anyway the question was around Lando, I understand the Russell decision because by the letter of the law it looks like he didn't have a right to space, but by a small margin. Part of me wonders if it is where the move starts that takes precedence.

If you think it is cut and dry, this same discussion is happening in the Merc thread. I really don't think this one is straight forward but I can understand the Russell decision more now. But fundamentally I disagree with the idea it was divebomb which suggests not in control, he was in total control, it was brilliant driving to manage the car like that, just not quite enough to get into the space for Russell which gave him the right to close the track, but not far off at all. But the idea that this doesn't show him capable of passing Lando I do disagree with, but there we go. He was past Norris and controlling the car round the corner for another attack and carrying the same speed as Russell. Clearly not carrying too much speed or divebombing. So the question that no one seems to be able to answer sensibly is, when is an overtake complete.

[Sieper]

yes, but overall his last stint was much better then Russells ,

Who said otherwise, just didn't have enough to make the pass and that's really all that matters. Russell gifted him the podium in the end but his poor qualifying cost him a shot at the win.

yes, he didnt had enough, thats true, to pass you need on this track much bigger delta( 1,5s or even more) or a gift....

Not 1,5, a bit less. Unless the frontrunner is determined to keep you at bay (which ofcourse all 3 in front of Hamilton would have been in that phase of the race).

[mwillems]

Russell was even moe severe in Spain, got alongside Piastri, went off track down an escape road, made the pass on the escape road and kept it. So not consistent with a more slam dunk event earlier in the season.

So the idea that the Ham decision was obvious is not accurate, just like those reading Hams mind and intentions like mystic Meg.

From someone who has taken the time to visualise it and demonstrate an example where the opposite decision was made (Bloody good memory)

Doesn't help that Hamilton went off track for Perez and wasn't asked to give it back. Total lack of consistency from the stewards but I'll take it.

[...] Hamilton’s move was so extreme that I would want to see telemetry of his speed there vs next lap because I think Stewards basically saw that he passed Norris because he had no intention of making the corner.

I’m not saying he wasn’t going to make it but his speed was high and he just went straight very quickly after George allegedly pushed him.

If you check the far offboard replay which was posted here as a gif you can see that Hamilton seemingly had no overspeed relative to Russell from a certain point onwards, he was very likely capable of making the corner whilst already having completed the overtake on Norris.

Arguably the precedent for this move being perfectly fine was Lewis' own team mate in Spain (highlight vid as a refresher if needed)

That was Russell's position relative to Piastri, the only explanation of why Russell did not have to give the position back is that it was deemed he had completed the overtake:


He bailed before he was actually ran out of road, a bit before the halfway point between apexes:


He then went around the bollard and kept the position ahead of Piastri.

And now for comparison:

I'm relatively certain Norris has no part of his car alongside of Lewis from this point onward, if Russell was deemed to have completed the overtake on Piastri in Spain, then this is certainly the case here.

From the gif mentioned above: a few frames in which Hamilton's position to Russell doesn't change significantly, the logical conclusion is that he has shed any extra speed and is not going significantly faster than Russell, if at all.

The consequence of that is that he would have been fully capable of making the corner if given the space.

He then bails before he is actually ran out of road, a bit before the halfway point between apexes:


He absolutely had to give the position back to Russell, of course - Norris? Not so sure, but definitely not if the FIA/stewards/race control were consistent.

[Just_a_fan]

That's fair enough, so, he had to cool his tyres and couldn't continue with that relentless pace for a couple of laps.

yes, but overall his last stint was much better then Russells ,

Who said otherwise, just didn't have enough to make the pass and that's really all that matters. Russell gifted him the podium in the end but his poor qualifying cost him a shot at the win.

He admitted as much after the race. One thing about Hamilton, even if one doesn't like the bloke, one has to admit that he does admit it when he knows he's messed up.

[ringo]

Emotions often get in the way of common sense. The truth is, Hamilton had blistering pace for a number of laps but by the time he had passed Leclerc that blistering pace relative to Russell had all but disappeared. The gap stayed consistent for a few laps and then he was slightly faster until they both came up to Norris.

That is inaccurate. Gap increased to 2s after HAM passed LEC and HAM was 1.3s faster over the next 3 laps after which they remained in the DRS train until the end.

It was also quite visible to see on track. Russell had traction issues with the rears likely overheating while Hamilton was able to take tighter lines into corners.

I have just watched those moments now, after Hamilton passed Leclerc he was around 1.3 secs behind Russell, it then went up to around 1.8 secs and stabilized, Hamilton then started reeling him in and was around 1.1-1.3 secs behind by the time Russell had caught up to Norris. As I said, his blistering pace relative to Russell had disappeared by the time he passed Leclerc.

The pace did not dissapear. You cannot look at lap times in isolation. There is a slower moving object in front of any car, it will have to do slower than it is capable of. Hamilton ran into russel and literally held back and waited. He had more pace in hand. It was obvious.

[dialtone]

Source:

Let's remember this wasn't set as a penalty for Perez, destroyed a car.

[organic]

AT guys who just built the new sidepod and floor:



Tsunoda thing was lap 1 though. So there's some explanation. They almost never penalize lap 1 stuff (if your name isn't Gasly)

[Hammerfist]

yes, but overall his last stint was much better then Russells ,

Who said otherwise, just didn't have enough to make the pass and that's really all that matters. Russell gifted him the podium in the end but his poor qualifying cost him a shot at the win.

He admitted as much after the race. One thing about Hamilton, even if one doesn't like the bloke, one has to admit that he does admit it when he knows he's messed up.

And some people use that against him. I've seen a few articles with headlines refering to the "I'm so slow" Hamilton over the past weekend. Some posters love to jump at him for that too. He has nothing else to prove so he can afford to be honest. A guy like Russell cannot talk like that because he's just not established yet.

[TFSA]

Source:

Let's remember this wasn't set as a penalty for Perez, destroyed a car.

Because if anyone is to blame, it's Yuki.

Perez had a clear road ahead of him by the time he had a wheel alongside Yuki on the inside line, which entitles Perez to space. And he was going faster than Yuki.

Yuki then just cuts across him, completely ignoring his presence. I would say that what Yuki did reminded me of Sainz vs. Piastri at Spa, except that unlike Sainz, who was trying to dodge Hamilton at Spa, Yuki had no car on his outside he needed to dodge. He could easily have taken the wider line, giving Perez the space he was entitled to.

You can make arguments for a racing incident, but this was in no way Perez fault.

[BMMR61]

@mwillems - I don't expect to change your mind as you are pretty invested into particularly, the Norris part of the overtake. tbh I'm in two minds about the second part but first want to give my perspective on Lewis's placement and speed at the point George is turning right towards the second apex. George has every right to take the inside of the second apex to the right, Lewis well before this point had zero right to this line and knew it. So he was on a line he would be obligated to drop speed and pull in behind George, albeit on a far more left pointing trajectory. This line would have meant a very compromised exit speed by Lewis and probably even meant Lando would have blown past him on the straight if he genuinely tried to navigate the whole corner bailing from George's rear. His alternate action was what we saw.

So my dilemma on the Lando pass is does Lewis so compromise the RH part of the esses by a very speculative lunge that Lando would have on the optimum line blown past on the exit. It's very open to debate but we've seen all manner of rule interpretations to make this one seem not too out of the ordinary. I do disagree firmly with the notion that he didn't need to give back the place to George - slam dunk!