TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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Juzh
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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horner remains adamant TDs had zero impact on their struggles in singapore
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... /10521900/
In fact, Red Bull team boss Christian Horner was adamant that the squad had had to make “zero” changes to its car as a result of the new FIA stance.

Asked to explain the details about what went wrong, Horner said: “It's all engineering stuff. There's no silver bullets in this business.

“I know all of you would love to blame the TD, but unfortunately we can't even blame that, because it's not changed a single component on our car.”

Pushed to clarify whether the team had had to change the way it operates any of its components, Horner replied: “No. Zero.”
Newey claims the same, and other teams have also not gone out and try suggest RB was hit by TDs. IF true then this race didn't show us if TDs hit anyone at all in meaningful way, fortunately we don't have to wait long for more data.

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TFSA
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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Juzh wrote:horner remains adamant TDs had zero impact on their struggles in singapore
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... /10521900/

Newey claims the same, and other teams have also not gone out and try suggest RB was hit by TDs. IF true then this race didn't show us if TDs hit anyone at all in meaningful way, fortunately we don't have to wait long for more data.
Max also said that in the simulator the car is fine for Suzuka. Also, as someone else mentioned, Max body language was quite positive for someone who has a rather rare bad weekend. He wouldn't be that positive if this was something that was gonna stay with them for the rest of the season.

I personally think that anyone holding their breath for Red Bull being handicapped now are going to be very disappointed.

As for other teams, it seems like AM is the team that actually might have been hit by this the hardest - and they had a decent race with Alonso, except for the fact that it was ruined by a penalty and a botched pit stop.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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The detail with which the FIA described the plank trickery was fascinating though.
A lion must kill its prey.

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SiLo
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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AR3-GP wrote:
18 Sep 2023, 14:50
The detail with which the FIA described the plank trickery was fascinating though.
Where is the document that explains it? I'm looking to improve my understanding of what they think teams were doing.
Felipe Baby!

AR3-GP
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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SiLo wrote:
18 Sep 2023, 15:30
AR3-GP wrote:
18 Sep 2023, 14:50
The detail with which the FIA described the plank trickery was fascinating though.
Where is the document that explains it? I'm looking to improve my understanding of what they think teams were doing.
I do not have the TD document but AMUS referred to some of it.

I think this was posted earlier but I copied it from elsewhere.
AUTO MOTOR UND SPORT [STORY TRANSLATION] - The FIA ​​keeps a close eye on the teams. Because there was too much trickery with both the base plate and the wings, new rules come into force in Singapore.

On August 22nd, the teams received mail from F1 Technical Director Tim Goss. The former McLaren engineer sent out two technical directives that have existed for a long time, but have to be modified again and again because teams keep finding new ways to outsmart the regulations.

The TD018 deals with the flexibility of fairing parts on three sides. It comes into force in Singapore. TD039 defines the rules for the floor panel fastenings and the aerodynamically generated rocking of the cars. The adjusted seven-page interpretation of TD039 generally applied as of the date of mailing. The stricter regulations contained therein for the front part of the guard rail will only come into force from the race in Singapore.

In an effort to minimize car bottoming for safety reasons and to protect drivers, a measurement was introduced in Spa last year that measures the vertical movements of the car and the impact as it hits the road. Anyone who exceeds a certain level, which is calculated using a complicated formula, has to make improvements. Roughly speaking, the limit is 8 g.
The guardrail under the car proved to be an inadequate tool to prevent too much contact with the ground. Although it is only allowed to wear a maximum of one millimeter in certain places during the race, the teams quickly found tricks to protect the plank even when it hits the ground.

The FIA ​​is trying to put a stop to floor tricks. For example, with an insulating material between the chassis and the base plate that softens the shocks. Or fastening screws that protrude slightly and disappear into the plank when they come into contact with the road, thus also having a dampening effect. The TD039 put an end to that. A year has now passed and the teams have already discovered new loopholes. The newly added paragraph 1.3 is now intended to fill this in as well.

The text reads in official English: "We have noticed design details in the designated holes in the floor skid area that are designed to maximize the allowable stiffness in these areas. While these designs may meet the deflection requirements, we would like the teams to do so Remember that designs must still conform to the dimensional constraints of the corresponding trim parts, which state that there must be a continuous surface on the reference plane. Designs must not use breaks in this surface to allow for differences in vertical stiffness at these break points"

The FIA ​​specifies in four points what it considers to be illegal in the future: gaps, cuts or butt joints in the relevant part of the reference plane, systematic damage, cracks or breaks on the surface of the reference plane near the holes intended for the skids, highly flexible materials on the plank or folded surfaces and connections.
A lion must kill its prey.

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ValeVida46
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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Track surface and humidity were 2 reasons I've read why RB underperformed last weekend.

At Monaco Red Bull raised their ride height after driver complaints due to the bumps(and kerbs) in a poor FP1 and managed a clean sweep after(FP2 FP3 Quali and Win).

Monaco has a fair amount of similarities to Singapore including the track surface being similar vs usual norm.
But around Singapore they raised the ride height quite considerably due to "a couple of bumps" and it looked nowhere near a car that's won 14 races this season and certainly not comparable to their Monaco showing.

As a slight OT but possibly related, seems very strange Red Bull mentioned the humidity as a possible explanation for the gearbox issue, when Alpha Tauri didn't report the same. Do they share the same gearbox/or did the AT drivers complain about the shifts?
It might be they went for aggressive shifting to make up for some deficits that came up in the sim.

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Wouter
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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ValeVida46 wrote:
18 Sep 2023, 16:52
Track surface and humidity were 2 reasons I've read why RB underperformed last weekend.

At Monaco Red Bull raised their ride height after driver complaints due to the bumps(and kerbs) in a poor FP1 and managed a clean sweep after(FP2 FP3 Quali and Win).

Monaco has a fair amount of similarities to Singapore including the track surface being similar vs usual norm.
But around Singapore they raised the ride height quite considerably due to "a couple of bumps" and it looked nowhere near a car that's won 14 races this season and certainly not comparable to their Monaco showing.

As a slight OT but possibly related, seems very strange Red Bull mentioned the humidity as a possible explanation for the gearbox issue, when Alpha Tauri didn't report the same. Do they share the same gearbox/or did the AT drivers complain about the shifts?
It might be they went for aggressive shifting to make up for some deficits that came up in the sim.
.
Yes, it was confirmed that they went for aggressive shifting to make up for some deficits that came up in the sim.

AlphaTauri doesn't share the same gearbox, so they didn't have those problems.

What has al this to do with the TD018?

Are you dying to hear that the RB19 performed so poorly because of the TD018? :roll: #-o
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organic
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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I am surprised too that Monaco/baku were alright and Singapore was not, but at the beginning of the season they had a larger margin.

Newey suggested humidity played a part.. and it's clear the setup was not correct. And the drivers made large errors.

Like a perfect storm of many different issues.

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dans79
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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organic wrote:
18 Sep 2023, 19:02
Newey suggested humidity played a part.. and it's clear the setup was not correct. And the drivers made large errors.
That's the part that's confusing to me, the teams can change mappings cooling etc etc right up to the start of qualifying so how did the humidity affect the engine and upshifts.
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Wouter
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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dans79 wrote:
18 Sep 2023, 19:54
organic wrote:
18 Sep 2023, 19:02
Newey suggested humidity played a part.. and it's clear the setup was not correct. And the drivers made large errors.
.
That's the part that's confusing to me, the teams can change mappings cooling etc etc right up to the start of qualifying so how did the humidity affect the engine and upshifts.
.
I was asking myself the same thing. I only know that they stated the same during the Canadian GP.
The humidity was also high there and they had also problems with the up- and down shifts.
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Juzh
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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Alpha tauri used RB gearboxes since 2019 (?). They skipped 2020 version in 2021, used 2019 instead because they didn't want to redesign whole back end.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/79564/al ... ehind.html
''They have a 2019 gearbox again. If they had wanted to take the 2020 gearbox, they would have had to replace parts around it to make it work properly, whereas they wanted to tackle the front end,'' Chandhok said on F1TV's broadcast. However, the former F1 driver has another reason.
In 2022 AT used a 2022 version of red bull gearbox.
https://www.crash.net/f1/feature/996443 ... 022-f1-car
“For 2022, the areas of synergy are at the rear end - gearbox, hydraulics, rear suspension, which is pretty similar arrangement to what we have had in the past,” said AlphaTauri technical director Jody Egginton following the digital launch of the AT03 on Monday.
It looks like in 2023 they're using 2022 gearbox
https://racingnews365.com/alphatauri-el ... w-2023-car
"Apart from the gearbox and many parts from the rear suspension, it's a completely new car," Tost revealed to media, including RacingNews365.com.

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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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Wouter wrote:
18 Sep 2023, 18:02
ValeVida46 wrote:
18 Sep 2023, 17:33
Wouter wrote:
18 Sep 2023, 17:16
Are you dying to hear that the RB19 performed so poorly because of the TD018? :roll: #-o
Just asking questions and pointing out some similarities to Monaco. I'm actually dying to get out the office, but if you have anything constructive to add rather than personal insults I'm absolutley all ears.
.
It is just very noticeable that you, as a Mercedes fan, always appear in the RBR thread to comment on the members of RBR.
I ask myself why. That's allowed, right? Now asking questions again about matters relating to Monaco. Why?
Horner, Max, Newey, Marko, Waché, Monaghan, etc. have all confirmed that the poor setup of the car has nothing, absolutely nothing to do
with the TDs and then you, as a Mercedes fan, come and ask all kinds of questions about this to prove otherwise.
I find that very remarkable.
.
Red Bull team boss Christian Horner was adamant that the squad had had to make “zero” changes to its car as a result of the new FIA stance.

Asked to explain the details about what went wrong, Horner said: “It's all engineering stuff. There's no silver bullets in this business.

“I know all of you would love to blame the TD, but unfortunately we can't even blame that, because it's not changed a single component on our car.”
Pushed to clarify whether the team had had to change the way it operates any of its components, Horner replied: “No. Zero.”
“We knew coming here it would be expected to have closer competition,” he said. “But I think it took us a bit by surprise, just how far out we were on Friday.

“I think that we were just not in the right operating window for the car, particularly over a single lap. And when you're not there, then the tyres feel horrible. Everything just doesn't work.”
“I think that maybe our simulation before the weekend didn't lead us to the right conclusion,” Horner said. “Then you have to sort of unravel your way out of that.

“I think we just ended up in the wrong window and it exposed some of our weaknesses that the car has. But it has actually been a very useful lesson for next year, because it gives us some very useful insight and certain things that hopefully we can address in our RB20.”

Reflecting on the weekend, Red Bull’s chief engineer Paul Monaghan said that Singapore had exposed in public some weakness with the car that were already well known within the squad.

“We've got some inherent problems in it that we can't necessarily fix in a race weekend,” he said. “We've made some mistakes and it all culminated in us going out in Q2."

He added: “It's nothing fundamental but some errors were made on the way, and [there were] some problems we can correct into next year. On we go.”
.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... /10521900/
sorry for my very bad english I dont think RB will be (too much) afected with TD, but do you realy think if they are, that Horner and others team members say yes, we are afected , we are from now on 1s+ slower? ...propably they are afected, in some tracks, or some corners, maybe not, but dont be so (ehm please sorry)stupid to say, Horner said.....I think Singapur was mainly tires and setup related, maybe the TD doesnt help and now they have narower setup window, but They will win Suzuka again i think...sorry for my very bad english

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organic
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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I think if RB had to change something due to one of the TDs, they would not categorically deny it (both Adrian and Horner)... I think they would say something sly like yes there were changes to the car this weekend look at the documents detailing changes. Even if RB have a bad reputation I don't think they would all be lying straight up

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ValeVida46
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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organic wrote:
18 Sep 2023, 21:44
I think if RB had to change something due to one of the TDs, they would not categorically deny it (both Adrian and Horner)... I think they would say something sly like yes there were changes to the car this weekend look at the documents detailing changes. Even if RB have a bad reputation I don't think they would all be lying straight up
We can't cite statements as evidentiary, they categorically denied breaking the budget cap after all. I don't want to get embroiled in that, just using a recent example as a counter point.
For the record though, I don't think Red Bull will be affected by the TD's, at least not at most circuits.
But there is an outside chance the redefined FIA metrics have a bigger impact at bumpy street circuits.

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organic
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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ValeVida46 wrote:
18 Sep 2023, 22:21
organic wrote:
18 Sep 2023, 21:44
I think if RB had to change something due to one of the TDs, they would not categorically deny it (both Adrian and Horner)... I think they would say something sly like yes there were changes to the car this weekend look at the documents detailing changes. Even if RB have a bad reputation I don't think they would all be lying straight up
We can't cite statements as evidentiary, they categorically denied breaking the budget cap after all. I don't want to get embroiled in that, just using a recent example as a counter point.
For the record though, I don't think Red Bull will be affected by the TD's, at least not at most circuits.
But there is an outside chance the redefined FIA metrics have a bigger impact at bumpy street circuits.
What redefined FIA metrics are you referring to?