Watch the replays from Perez's car. Perez left room and Hamilton gasses it to the opposite side of the curb anyway in order to gain the lead into the next right hander.
Watch the replays from Perez's car. Perez left room and Hamilton gasses it to the opposite side of the curb anyway in order to gain the lead into the next right hander.
As a continuation of my point above....trinidefender wrote: ↑19 Sep 2023, 03:09Maybe this is the how the stewards got back at Hamilton for punting Piastri off the track at Monza......ok jokes aside...
I keep rewatching the overtake and subsequent corner and this whole thing seems very grey to me and, as evidenced by other people's comments here, it seems I'm not alone in this thinking.
There's a lot of ambiguity over when an overtake is completed. When a car is considered "alongside" for the purposes of if a car is require room either on the inside or outside of a corner etc.
There's so much inconsistency with the FIA race direction and stewarding (the entirety of 2021 for many teams being an example). Unless the FIA really sit down and work out defined concepts as far as what is and isn't allowed then fans will continue to get upset and create a bad image for the sport and rightly so.
As far as this incident goes there can even be the alternate case that Hamilton was well alongside Russel at some point and forced Hamilton off and Russel should have been penalised.
Adding speed data from F1.RZS10 wrote: ↑18 Sep 2023, 20:37If you check the far offboard replay which was posted here as a gif you can see that Hamilton seemingly had no overspeed relative to Russell from a certain point onwards, he was very likely capable of making the corner whilst already having completed the overtake on Norris.dialtone wrote: ↑18 Sep 2023, 17:59[...] Hamilton’s move was so extreme that I would want to see telemetry of his speed there vs next lap because I think Stewards basically saw that he passed Norris because he had no intention of making the corner.
I’m not saying he wasn’t going to make it but his speed was high and he just went straight very quickly after George allegedly pushed him.
Arguably the precedent for this move being perfectly fine was Lewis' own team mate in Spain (highlight vid as a refresher if needed)
That was Russell's position relative to Piastri, the only explanation of why Russell did not have to give the position back is that it was deemed he had completed the overtake:
https://i.imgur.com/g0WolyE.png
He bailed before he was actually ran out of road, a bit before the halfway point between apexes:
https://i.imgur.com/9UdTAGF.png
He then went around the bollard and kept the position ahead of Piastri.
And now for comparison:
https://i.imgur.com/3W1YyZq.png
I'm relatively certain Norris has no part of his car alongside of Lewis from this point onward, if Russell was deemed to have completed the overtake on Piastri in Spain, then this is certainly the case here.
From the gif mentioned above: a few frames in which Hamilton's position to Russell doesn't change significantly, the logical conclusion is that he has shed any extra speed and is not going significantly faster than Russell, if at all.
https://i.imgur.com/snFpBij.gif
The consequence of that is that he would have been fully capable of making the corner if given the space.
He then bails before he is actually ran out of road, a bit before the halfway point between apexes:
https://i.imgur.com/zMUfqXR.png
He absolutely had to give the position back to Russell, of course - Norris? Not so sure, but definitely not if the FIA/stewards/race control were consistent.
I wasn't using using anything pre 2022 as precedent for what is or isn't allowed. I was only using it to show that the FIA has a history of being very inconsistent in its stewarding.organic wrote: ↑19 Sep 2023, 04:01@trinidefender I'm pretty sure anything pre-2022 shouldn't be looked at for precedent in terms of wheel-to-wheel penalties as they attempted to redefine what is allowed in terms of running others off at the end of 2021 after the Verstappen/Hamilton incidents. Not saying they've done that or whatever
No clue on the Russell/ham/Norris. Too grey for me
Agree with you on all fronts there. Wasn't trying to contradict you in my first reply just adding some info that I feel is importanttrinidefender wrote: ↑19 Sep 2023, 06:39I wasn't using using anything pre 2022 as precedent for what is or isn't allowed. I was only using it to show that the FIA has a history of being very inconsistent in its stewarding.organic wrote: ↑19 Sep 2023, 04:01@trinidefender I'm pretty sure anything pre-2022 shouldn't be looked at for precedent in terms of wheel-to-wheel penalties as they attempted to redefine what is allowed in terms of running others off at the end of 2021 after the Verstappen/Hamilton incidents. Not saying they've done that or whatever
No clue on the Russell/ham/Norris. Too grey for me
They say they've tried to make it more black and white but to me it seems to me that the progress that's been made is akin to being shot by a small bullet instead of a big bullet. They still have a long way to go to not being shot at all as far as consistency.
Frankly I have little faith in the FIA as an organisation as a whole. From the handling of spygate in 2007 and engine gate in 2019 to the entire season of inconsistent penalties/stewarding of 2021 culminating in that farce of a finale all to avoid a finish under a safety car (I don't blame red bull, they are innocent in that incident) my faith in the FIA has been dissolved. I love the sport in spite of the FIA, not because of it.
Back to the topic at hand, I agree. It's too grey for me to be very confident which way I view the situation.
<personal stuff removed>
basti313 wrote: ↑19 Sep 2023, 09:04I am surprised how deep Ham fans are falling. Why do you consistently post nonsense and lies? Everyone including Hamilton Tot and the team was happy about how the first corner was handled.
He was alongside Norris, when he would have needed to brake. The only reason he came alongside Russel was that he missed the braking point and gained nearly three car length on Russel. I do not know why you have to make a story out of this, there is nothing to argue and everything is fine. I am sure Ham does not want guys like you defending him with lies.
Yeah, but it's a great excuse to Ham-hate so no surprise to see such effort applied to it.cplchanb wrote: ↑19 Sep 2023, 16:09guys lets all take this with a bit of logic... at no point was ham complaining that russell was too slow or to let him take a stab at victory... there were only a few laps left. they both needed to get past 2 cars. could it simply be a case of needing to thread the needle since there is simply no time to pass 1 car at a time? had ham stayed back and let rus pass first he would run out of laps to pass himself. its kinda like the movie Driven where stallone's character was following closely with the protagonist so they could both pass cars together.
honestly this whole thing is taken WAY out of context and completely overblown.
So - come on JaF - stop throwing the baitJust_a_fan wrote: ↑19 Sep 2023, 16:45Yeah, but it's a great excuse to Ham-hate so no surprise to see such effort applied to it.cplchanb wrote: ↑19 Sep 2023, 16:09guys lets all take this with a bit of logic... at no point was ham complaining that russell was too slow or to let him take a stab at victory... there were only a few laps left. they both needed to get past 2 cars. could it simply be a case of needing to thread the needle since there is simply no time to pass 1 car at a time? had ham stayed back and let rus pass first he would run out of laps to pass himself. its kinda like the movie Driven where stallone's character was following closely with the protagonist so they could both pass cars together.
honestly this whole thing is taken WAY out of context and completely overblown.
Sorry Mr Mod.CMSMJ1 wrote: ↑19 Sep 2023, 16:50So - come on JaF - stop throwing the baitJust_a_fan wrote: ↑19 Sep 2023, 16:45Yeah, but it's a great excuse to Ham-hate so no surprise to see such effort applied to it.cplchanb wrote: ↑19 Sep 2023, 16:09guys lets all take this with a bit of logic... at no point was ham complaining that russell was too slow or to let him take a stab at victory... there were only a few laps left. they both needed to get past 2 cars. could it simply be a case of needing to thread the needle since there is simply no time to pass 1 car at a time? had ham stayed back and let rus pass first he would run out of laps to pass himself. its kinda like the movie Driven where stallone's character was following closely with the protagonist so they could both pass cars together.
honestly this whole thing is taken WAY out of context and completely overblown.