McLaren MCL60

[Marc.W]

Oscars car at Suzuka

[trinidefender]

For the conversation going on in the team thread that would be more on topic here.

They look the same to me. Anyone care to point out the differences.

Singapore wing from Friday. Did they use this one in the race?


From today at Suzuka


P.s. mods, maybe consider moving some of those posts to this car thread?

[Marc.W]

For the conversation going on in the team thread that would be more on topic here.

They look the same to me. Anyone care to point out the differences.

Singapore wing from Friday. Did they use this one in the race?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6DgItxWIAA ... ame=medium

From today at Suzuka
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6io2DSbEAA ... name=large

P.s. mods, maybe consider moving some of those posts to this car thread?

I believe both drivers had the same wing for Singapore, but Lando had some other updates

[mwillems]

For the conversation going on in the team thread that would be more on topic here.

They look the same to me. Anyone care to point out the differences.

Singapore wing from Friday. Did they use this one in the race?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6DgItxWIAA ... ame=medium

From today at Suzuka
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6io2DSbEAA ... name=large

P.s. mods, maybe consider moving some of those posts to this car thread?

I believe both drivers had the same wing for Singapore, but Lando had some other updates

The discussion wasn't around if they are the same between here and Singapore but around the fact that Singapore was no longer using High DF wings in part due to the new layout, and a look at those used in the season and a comparison to other wings used such as at Monaco, to demonstrate some of the High DF wings like the one that Merc used, so it was sort of team sort of technical and so that conversation was probably suited to that thread but happy to have it here.

To me, the wing here and at Singapore appears to be the wing we saw first at Zandvoort with a change to the Winglets, these wings seems to be derivative of the Silverstone wing that was used across the season. I figure that the latest iteration looks to be on the whole to be a medium downforce wing (despite being always referenced as barn door) but producing a little less downforce than previous iterations (Pre winglet - Silverstone for example) and being a little more efficient, with the balance being that the efficiency gain is more than the downforce loss due to the separation of aero forces that the cutout enables, since the vertical and horizontal flows no longer connect. I'd read that the wider winglet does claw a small amount of the DF back and retain the efficiency gains of this wing. This may also explains the reason the high speed cornering in Singapore was not as great as you'd expect for the Mclaren, and perhaps why we might have also been handy in a straight line against the Mercs, as well as getting help from Sainz DRS. That sums up the conversation we were having and the opinions being shared

[LionsHeart]

For the conversation going on in the team thread that would be more on topic here.

They look the same to me. Anyone care to point out the differences.

Singapore wing from Friday. Did they use this one in the race?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6DgItxWIAA ... ame=medium

From today at Suzuka
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6io2DSbEAA ... name=large

P.s. mods, maybe consider moving some of those posts to this car thread?

I believe both drivers had the same wing for Singapore, but Lando had some other updates

The discussion wasn't around if they are the same between here and Singapore but around the fact that Singapore was no longer using High DF wings in part due to the new layout, and a look at those used in the season and a comparison to other wings used such as at Monaco, to demonstrate some of the High DF wings like the one that Merc used, so it was sort of team sort of technical and so that conversation was probably suited to that thread but happy to have it here.

To me, the wing here and at Singapore appears to be the wing we saw first at Zandvoort with a change to the Winglets, these wings seems to be derivative of the Silverstone wing that was used across the season. I figure that the latest iteration looks to be on the whole to be a medium downforce wing (despite being always referenced as barn door) but producing a little less downforce than previous iterations (Pre winglet - Silverstone for example) and being a little more efficient, with the balance being that the efficiency gain is more than the downforce loss due to the separation of aero forces that the cutout enables, since the vertical and horizontal flows no longer connect. I'd read that the wider winglet does claw a small amount of the DF back and retain the efficiency gains of this wing. This may also explains the reason the high speed cornering in Singapore was not as great as you'd expect for the Mclaren, and perhaps why we might have also been handy in a straight line against the Mercs, as well as getting help from Sainz DRS. That sums up the conversation we were having and the opinions being shared

After reading it again, I understood what you meant. Fine. I went to do my homework. Collect photos and show that this wing for Silverstone is a medium pressure, and in Singapore there was a high pressure. They are completely different not only in the angle of attack of the upper flap, but also in the total area and geometry of the main plane.

[mwillems]

I believe both drivers had the same wing for Singapore, but Lando had some other updates

The discussion wasn't around if they are the same between here and Singapore but around the fact that Singapore was no longer using High DF wings in part due to the new layout, and a look at those used in the season and a comparison to other wings used such as at Monaco, to demonstrate some of the High DF wings like the one that Merc used, so it was sort of team sort of technical and so that conversation was probably suited to that thread but happy to have it here.

To me, the wing here and at Singapore appears to be the wing we saw first at Zandvoort with a change to the Winglets, these wings seems to be derivative of the Silverstone wing that was used across the season. I figure that the latest iteration looks to be on the whole to be a medium downforce wing (despite being always referenced as barn door) but producing a little less downforce than previous iterations (Pre winglet - Silverstone for example) and being a little more efficient, with the balance being that the efficiency gain is more than the downforce loss due to the separation of aero forces that the cutout enables, since the vertical and horizontal flows no longer connect. I'd read that the wider winglet does claw a small amount of the DF back and retain the efficiency gains of this wing. This may also explains the reason the high speed cornering in Singapore was not as great as you'd expect for the Mclaren, and perhaps why we might have also been handy in a straight line against the Mercs, as well as getting help from Sainz DRS. That sums up the conversation we were having and the opinions being shared

After reading it again, I understood what you meant. Fine. I went to do my homework. Collect photos and show that this wing for Silverstone is a medium pressure, and in Singapore there was a high pressure. They are completely different not only in the angle of attack of the upper flap, but also in the total area and geometry of the main plane.

Silverstone:


Suzuka:



I'm totally open to needing new lenses, but the AoA doesn't look much different between Suzuka and Silverstone, I can only see the difference in the winglets and in the disconnect between the winglets and the wing supports? Seems that the wing used in Singapore and Suzuka are closely related bar the winglets?

[LionsHeart]

Ok guys.

https://ibb.co/VwSP4hz - Silverstone, Canada, Austria
https://ibb.co/nP8xNhd - Singapore
https://ibb.co/t2CRHJq - Australia, Bahrain

Pay attention to the height of the rear wing. The Silverstone wing does not have such a massive main plane as the Zandvoort-Singapore specification. The Bahrain-Australia specification wing is more similar in height and depth, but starts to rise earlier towards the end plates. All three wings produce different amounts of downforce, but the Bahrain wing is even closer in performance to Silverstone's specification.

[LionsHeart]

The discussion wasn't around if they are the same between here and Singapore but around the fact that Singapore was no longer using High DF wings in part due to the new layout, and a look at those used in the season and a comparison to other wings used such as at Monaco, to demonstrate some of the High DF wings like the one that Merc used, so it was sort of team sort of technical and so that conversation was probably suited to that thread but happy to have it here.

To me, the wing here and at Singapore appears to be the wing we saw first at Zandvoort with a change to the Winglets, these wings seems to be derivative of the Silverstone wing that was used across the season. I figure that the latest iteration looks to be on the whole to be a medium downforce wing (despite being always referenced as barn door) but producing a little less downforce than previous iterations (Pre winglet - Silverstone for example) and being a little more efficient, with the balance being that the efficiency gain is more than the downforce loss due to the separation of aero forces that the cutout enables, since the vertical and horizontal flows no longer connect. I'd read that the wider winglet does claw a small amount of the DF back and retain the efficiency gains of this wing. This may also explains the reason the high speed cornering in Singapore was not as great as you'd expect for the Mclaren, and perhaps why we might have also been handy in a straight line against the Mercs, as well as getting help from Sainz DRS. That sums up the conversation we were having and the opinions being shared

After reading it again, I understood what you meant. Fine. I went to do my homework. Collect photos and show that this wing for Silverstone is a medium pressure, and in Singapore there was a high pressure. They are completely different not only in the angle of attack of the upper flap, but also in the total area and geometry of the main plane.

Silverstone:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F0WaFniX0AE ... name=small

Suzuka:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6hMApvaAAE ... name=large

I'm totally open to needing new lenses, but the AoA doesn't look much different between Suzuka and Silverstone, I can only see the difference in the winglets and in the disconnect between the winglets and the wing supports? Seems that the wing used in Singapore and Suzuka are closely related bar the winglets?

I didn’t see any difference between Singapore and Suzuka at all. This is the same rear wing. And here specification of Silverstone is similar in angle of attack, but the upper flap and main plane have a smaller area, and therefore develop less downforce and less drag. Just as I see it: They invented a new rear wing for high downforce within the limits allowed by the technical regulations for the overall height of the rear wing. By overall height I mean from the bottom of the main plane to the top edge of the top flap.

But at the same time, the team is struggling with drag; don’t forget, we previously had the worst top speed. Now this is not so bad, judging by the maximum speed in qualifying, where you can forget about the slipstream in Singapore.

https://x.com/FDataAnalysis/status/1703 ... 88323?s=20
https://x.com/FDataAnalysis/status/1703 ... 22105?s=20

[FittingMechanics]

To me the wing with the cutout looks the same - with the team just varying the angle to provide more or less downforce.

[mwillems]

Ok guys.

https://ibb.co/VwSP4hz - Silverstone, Canada, Austria
https://ibb.co/nP8xNhd - Singapore
https://ibb.co/t2CRHJq - Australia, Bahrain

Pay attention to the height of the rear wing. The Silverstone wing does not have such a massive main plane as the Zandvoort-Singapore specification. The Bahrain-Australia specification wing is more similar in height and depth, but starts to rise earlier towards the end plates. All three wings produce different amounts of downforce, but the Bahrain wing is even closer in performance to Silverstone's specification.

That does show a difference, just not sure if it the angles, lense etc. If I look hard at the garage pics taken close up, I think I might be able to see a difference, but not a large one to be honest. But the point made was more that we weren't using a high DF wing at Singapore. Derivative of Silverstone does not mean a clone, with exact same specs, just very closely related. A version of.

You may be right about the AoA though, I suppose one thing about disconnecting the rear wing top element at the sides like that is that you might easier change the AoA through setup and not need to manufacture new wings? Is that possible? Because those wings look very closely related if not identical twins.

[mwillems]

After reading it again, I understood what you meant. Fine. I went to do my homework. Collect photos and show that this wing for Silverstone is a medium pressure, and in Singapore there was a high pressure. They are completely different not only in the angle of attack of the upper flap, but also in the total area and geometry of the main plane.

Silverstone:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F0WaFniX0AE ... name=small

Suzuka:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6hMApvaAAE ... name=large

I'm totally open to needing new lenses, but the AoA doesn't look much different between Suzuka and Silverstone, I can only see the difference in the winglets and in the disconnect between the winglets and the wing supports? Seems that the wing used in Singapore and Suzuka are closely related bar the winglets?

I didn’t see any difference between Singapore and Suzuka at all. This is the same rear wing. And here specification of Silverstone is similar in angle of attack, but the upper flap and main plane have a smaller area, and therefore develop less downforce and less drag. Just as I see it: They invented a new rear wing for high downforce within the limits allowed by the technical regulations for the overall height of the rear wing. By overall height I mean from the bottom of the main plane to the top edge of the top flap.

But at the same time, the team is struggling with drag; don’t forget, we previously had the worst top speed. Now this is not so bad, judging by the maximum speed in qualifying, where you can forget about the slipstream in Singapore.

https://x.com/FDataAnalysis/status/1703 ... 88323?s=20
https://x.com/FDataAnalysis/status/1703 ... 22105?s=20

It was a typo, meant Suzuka and Silverstone

[mwillems]

After reading it again, I understood what you meant. Fine. I went to do my homework. Collect photos and show that this wing for Silverstone is a medium pressure, and in Singapore there was a high pressure. They are completely different not only in the angle of attack of the upper flap, but also in the total area and geometry of the main plane.

Silverstone:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F0WaFniX0AE ... name=small

Suzuka:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6hMApvaAAE ... name=large

I'm totally open to needing new lenses, but the AoA doesn't look much different between Suzuka and Silverstone, I can only see the difference in the winglets and in the disconnect between the winglets and the wing supports? Seems that the wing used in Singapore and Suzuka are closely related bar the winglets?

I didn’t see any difference between Singapore and Suzuka at all. This is the same rear wing. And here specification of Silverstone is similar in angle of attack, but the upper flap and main plane have a smaller area, and therefore develop less downforce and less drag. Just as I see it: They invented a new rear wing for high downforce within the limits allowed by the technical regulations for the overall height of the rear wing. By overall height I mean from the bottom of the main plane to the top edge of the top flap.

But at the same time, the team is struggling with drag; don’t forget, we previously had the worst top speed. Now this is not so bad, judging by the maximum speed in qualifying, where you can forget about the slipstream in Singapore.

https://x.com/FDataAnalysis/status/1703 ... 88323?s=20
https://x.com/FDataAnalysis/status/1703 ... 22105?s=20

I'm confused because you're saying that here the AoA between the three tracks is similar, which was always my point, and the tops speeds in Qualy support the fact that we ran with less DF, if you consider we already carry a drag penalty through the package and seemed to carry less speed in the high speed corners.

Monaco was the biggest DF wing we brought and even that was not a high DF wing compared to other beasts.



So I'm not sure how to classify that we have ever had a proper high DF rear wing this season? I mean, they are massive differences between our Monaco wing and others, not like between Silverstone wing and the Singapore/Suzuka wing.

Given that the wings between Silverstone, Singapore and Suzuka are not totally dissimilar, it seems reasonable that we don't need a high DF wing at Singapore. And that it wasn't a high DF wing at Singapore and I think that this adds to the idea that those wings are very closely related.

[LionsHeart]

https://ibb.co/qJdM2gH - Singapore spec
https://ibb.co/3hyQTh6 - Silverstone spec
https://ibb.co/gjpmd5R - Silverstone spec
https://ibb.co/sWrPJH8 - Singapore and Monaco.

The last photo here is the most revealing. It can be seen that the overall height is comparable. These wings are both barn door wings, but the first creates less drag and a higher top speed. The second gives peak maximum downforce at the cost of high drag. Now the team can do this because it has a reserve of downforce from the bottom.

I think the team brought a large wing in order to use the unloaded beam wing in order to increase the efficiency of the drs.

[mwillems]

https://ibb.co/qJdM2gH - Singapore spec
https://ibb.co/3hyQTh6 - Silverstone spec
https://ibb.co/gjpmd5R - Silverstone spec
https://ibb.co/sWrPJH8 - Singapore and Monaco.

The last photo here is the most revealing. It can be seen that the overall height is comparable. These wings are both barn wings, but the first creates less drag and a higher top speed. The second gives peak maximum downforce at the cost of high drag. Now the team can do this because it has a reserve of downforce from the bottom.

I think the team brought a large wing in order to use the unloaded beam wing in order to increase the efficiency of the drs.

Can you post them as images in here? It makes it much easier to compare

[LionsHeart]

https://ibb.co/qJdM2gH - Singapore spec
https://ibb.co/3hyQTh6 - Silverstone spec
https://ibb.co/gjpmd5R - Silverstone spec
https://ibb.co/sWrPJH8 - Singapore and Monaco.

The last photo here is the most revealing. It can be seen that the overall height is comparable. These wings are both barn wings, but the first creates less drag and a higher top speed. The second gives peak maximum downforce at the cost of high drag. Now the team can do this because it has a reserve of downforce from the bottom.

I think the team brought a large wing in order to use the unloaded beam wing in order to increase the efficiency of the drs.

Can you post them as images in here? It makes it much easier to compare

Teach me. I don't know how this is done.

Mod edit: lesson incoming:
How to post a picture
And example result: