2010 cars

[safeaschuck]

Based on my watching too many fuel mileage types of races, I cannot recommend them. If I was an evil person bent on inflicting punishment, pain, and suffering upon another person, I would force them to watch a fuel mileage race.
That's how bad they are, and many will discover this unpleasant truth next year.

Oh dear. Without any further explanation I see exactly what you are driving at, and it isn't a lunge down the inside of the car in front on every possible corner. Far too inefficient. And when the guy in front is leading by 15 seconds with 20 laps to go do you break out the brass balls and go for it 110 percent to catch him or do you break out the calculator and realise that 110% leaves only 90% of the fuel you require to finish the race and back off.

Needless to say the calculator will have more of a say than the driver when designing the car in the first place.

That is a potentially disastrous, and from my perspective completely unseen consequence of a refuelling ban. I hope those in the know have forseen this, although I doubt they will have mandated a minimum fuel tank size to compensate.

In other willful speculation:
What to do with your powerful but thirsty engine next year? development is still severely restricted is it not? Will Mercedes engines suffer a sudden drop in popularity next year when it is realised their thirst makes them un-competetive over a race distance?
Unable to ever make a good start with a heavy fuel load and wearing the first 2 sets of tyres out several laps early?
Will Ferrari surge to the front following a ruling seemingly favouring their slow but frugal engine?
Will Renault pull the plug siteing no hope in sight for their frozen engine?
This is all just wild dreaming of course, I have no idea of the fuel consumption rates of any F1 engine although I appreciate the gravity of your post Dave.

[Giblet]

No matter how they do it mathematically, they need to make sure the drivers can run flat out lap after lap, if they are capable, without running out of gas.

Making the cars more efficient is one thing, but making the racing about efficiency and nothing but will ruin the sport in a hurry.

[megz]

Why not have the hot air openings in the side pods of the cars directed into the upper deck of the diffuser and energise the airflow?

[vasia]

Interesting post, but you cannot definitely say any of these things will happen. Fact is there will be a variety of designs next year, and teams will continue to take different routes.

As for the refueling ban, different teams will definitely make different-sized fuel tanks, not just based on strategy and philosophy, but on engine fuel economy as well. As it stands right now, the Toyota engine is the most fuel efficient on the grid, so theoretically Toyota can risk having a smaller fuel tank than the rest on their 2010 car.

[timbo]

As it stands right now, the Toyota engine is the most fuel efficient on the grid, so theoretically Toyota can risk having a smaller fuel tank than the rest on their 2010 car.

????
From what I know it is completely other way around.
Look into Bahrain race.

[machin]

Based on my watching too many fuel mileage types of races, I cannot recommend them. If I was an evil person bent on inflicting punishment, pain, and suffering upon another person, I would force them to watch a fuel mileage race.
That's how bad they are, and many will discover this unpleasant truth next year.

Oh dear. Without any further explanation I see exactly what you are driving at, and it isn't a lunge down the inside of the car in front on every possible corner. Far too inefficient. And when the guy in front is leading by 15 seconds with 20 laps to go do you break out the brass balls and go for it 110 percent to catch him or do you break out the calculator and realise that 110% leaves only 90% of the fuel you require to finish the race and back off.

I don't see this at all.... the final stint of today's races will be similar to the whole race next year; they caluclate how much fuel they need to complete the race and I guess they add on a margin to cover "aggressive driving". I don't think any team would be more likely to under-fill their cars next year than they are this year, especially if they are potentially able to catch a car in front.... It just wouldn't make sense.

[DaveKillens]

I'm 58 years old, and have watched a lot of various racing series. I have witnessed fuel mileage races.
Does anyone remember the closing stages of the Spanish GP? Massa was in the unfortunate situation where he was very short of fuel, and had to just circulate around the track. He could not fight, and two cars passed him because he could not respond. Now imagine this kind of thing happening to the entire grid for the second half of a race.

The fundamental philosophy of a fuel mileage race is admirable. But when translated to reality, it produces a race that sucks.

[ISLAMATRON]

I thought the Massa situation at the end of the Spain GP was quite interesting.... but he didnt lose any places, he just gave back the positions he gained from short filling and running light.

And that seemed like that was the only passing we saw in that race.

[DaveKillens]

And that seemed like that was the only passing we saw in that race.

It's amusing how people can derive different conclusions while watching the same event? Anyways, I really enjoyed it when Alonso got past Webber after the safety car restart, only to see Webber cut around Alonso to recapture position. Pass and repass, very cool stuff.

[WhiteBlue]

Massa was in the unfortunate situation where he was very short of fuel, and had to just circulate around the track. He could not fight, and two cars passed him because he could not respond. Now imagine this kind of thing happening to the entire grid for the second half of a race.

I thought that was quite entertaining, actually. Rob Smedley told him to take it easy when there were 8 or 9 laps to go if I remember it right. He kept on fighting for another 5 laps with the result that he had to slow even more in the end and lost even more positions. Some people will obviously have more mental discipline to perform under such conditions.

You only have to remember the last race and Rubens to see that fuelling or the lack of it can screw your race whether refuelling is allowed or not. It matters how you cope with it if you have the luck that some of it is recoverable. I'm not saying Rubens is better than Massa. I try to make the point that mis calculating fuelling or failure to stick to your fuel strategy is not necessarily less entertaining. It is the same challenge for all and some will rise to it and be more adept.

A point can be made that banning refuelling will put the emphasis more on the driver to use his mental capacities and his talent to maximise progress with the least amount of fuel. The sprint races of the past are partly won by computer programs and by drivers who are robots under the race engineers order. Now the driver has to show a bit more race craft as the responsibility to arrive with his fuel load shifts to him. The race engineer can monitor and feed information but eventually the driver makes the decision to attack or slow in a particular situation, as we have seen with Massa.

[machin]

I agree WhiteBlue....... and I probably should have added the word "intentional" into my original post....!!!!:-

don't think any team would intentionally be more likely to under-fill their cars next year than they are this year

Comparing next year's F1 to a fuel-mileage race is wrong; -plenty (probably "most" is more appropriate) championships don't have fuel stops in the races and none end up with cars having to back off to finish the race UNLESS the team has made a mistake in their calculations (i.e. by cutting the fuel load too fine).

[Miguel]

This is completely OT, but I recall that when Smedley told Massa about the fuel issues, he had a gap of about 22 seconds with Alonso. Given that Alonso was on a slower car on the wrong tires at that time, I felt that it was a possibility to do a quick splash and dash, with new soft tires, and try to transform those 1.5s a lap advantage into a pass. With KERS it may have been possible.

[bill shoe]

Wow, great responses to the original post.

I don't like fuel economy runs, but fueling for the whole race will actually liberate the race strategy in some ways. Drivers will no longer be forced into awkward situations because a full course yellow or rain burst comes at a bad time relative to their fuel window. Anytime they want to change tires due to rain or tire wear they can. If they don't want to then they don't have to. Race outcomes will generally depend less on the yellow flag lottery. Which means Fernando Alonso won't get another cheap victory at Singapore just because his teammate finds the wall at a convenient time.

[bill shoe]

I appreciate the time and effort gone into the original post but think, wihtout malice, that it is just pie in the sky.

Moving the diff forwards? not with fuel tank over twice as large they won't..

OK, where DOES the fuel go?

The technical regs limit fuel location like this-
1. All fuel must be in a single tank between engine and driver.
2. Fuel can't be more than 300 mm in front of the rearmost point of the drivers back. This means the wedge of fuel under the driver can't extend forward more than 300 mm.
3. Fuel must be within 400 mm of the car centerline (max width 800 mm).

Here are some practical parameters-
1. The reference plane must be 300 to 500 mm wide.
2. The rear of the driver compartment must be at least 520 mm wide internally (to pass one of the template requirements).
3. The side head restraint has its top surface 655 mm above the reference plane.

Make an assumption about tank size. 200L is probably a reasonable guess.

The 300 mm wedge under the driver will hold around 20L. The remaining 180L in a perfect cube is 564 mm on a side. The rubber bladder and surrounding carbon tub are maybe 50mm thick, so the cube goes to 664 mm on a side. This is roughly possible, but the length is ~300 mm more than a 2009 car.

Not good to clobber the car with an extra 12 inches of wheelbase. Note to design department- make 2010 transmission really short.

Expand the fuel width to 800 mm, worry about radiator packaging later. This shortens the former cube to 500 mm including bladder and tub. Still 150 mm more than 2009.

At this point some things are clear-
1. Fuel packaging is really tough.
2. 2010 cars will have a somewhat longer wheelbase.
3. CMSMJ1 is correct that it would be very difficult to move the diff forward given the fuel issue. A.k.a. I think I was wrong in that prediction. Would have worked great this year.
4. I was right that there is very strong incentive to slightly undersize the tank even if the driver has to stroke it for part of the race.
5. If Patrick Head is correct that the Cosworth requires 15 kg more fuel over a race distance then the new teams will be racing strictly against themselves.
6. Nobody will have volume available for KERS components.

[mike]

i guess the fuel mileage issue could see F1 end up like the tour de france, where drivers will take turns in the front or be in a peloton to save fuel and the last 3 lap will be like the end of a sprint? if you have the fuel you can race or else just roll to the finish?
or
it could end up like a performance balancer, given the same engine, the faster cars have more grip so they are on the gas earlier and on the brake later which means more fuel. And "surprisingly" faster car also travel faster speeds which will mean more drag and again more fuel.
So mechanical grip could actually play a bigger role in travelling in higher speeds.
and we all know that different drivers save their fuel differently so that actually will bring more overtaking. you save fuel in the main straight and ill tow you in the back straight.