What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

[Oleo]

Bottas
https://www.racefans.net/2022/10/20/red ... ap-bottas/

“I feel like the rules are the rules and if you don’t follow them, there should be a penalty that really hurts,” he said.

“You don’t want anyone to have the appetite to maximise something for one year and risk it with the budget cap,” he said. “I personally hope that it’s going to be a strict and harsh penalty because that shouldn’t happen. The rules are the rules.

“There’s many rules in F1 and it should [not] be any different in terms of penalties. Let’s hope so that it’s a good penalty that really, really hurts them because I was in the fight last year for the constructors, yes we got that, but we missed the drivers’ title by a few points and a few millions can make a big, big difference.”

Hamilton
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/hamil ... /10387122/

“I do think the sport needs to do something about this,” said Hamilton.

“Otherwise, if it’s quite relaxed, if they’re relaxed with these rules, then all the teams will just go over.

“And spending millions more and then only having a slap on the wrist is obviously not going to be great for the sport. They might as well not have a cost cap for the future [in that case].”

One wonders why these folks werent demanding more harsh penalties when a 5 second penalty was given for a probably deliberate punting of a main competitor in the wall for a 32 point swing and a 5 place grid penalty was given for a very basic lack of control of the car destroying 2 competitor and several other cars, causing another massive 10+ point swing.

[rifrafs2kees]

You could say Mercedes lost last year's finale with the same mistake as this race: Wrong tyre choice. Mercedes has shown that being conservative has gotten the better of them, or maybe it's a fault of being too sure of themselves. Whether it's the risk of track position or being on faster tires, Mercedes seems to just make the wrong call.

Categorically terrible example to make your point. Redbull would've done the contrary move, thereby earned track position. Moreover, how would merc have known that only a subset of unlapped cars would be let through, i.e. schoolboy mistake?
They were objectively cheated out of the championship. End of story.

No .. and this sits wrong in the UK mindset; at the moment the SC came out, no one could have known how soon the car could have been cleared. No one. You could guess and opt to stay out for track position (typical conservative MB thinking), but if it would clear faster you just simply made the wrong choice.
Thát is what happened .. Masi got killed for it, but it was their own choice of options.
Never understood why they gave it away, as even with those old tires Ver could only barely pass .. Ham would have held easily with equal tires.
So anyway, in that sense imho Ispano is right ...

What you describe is farfetched.
Let's assume Hamilton had pitted for fresh boots, and Verstappen stayed out to earn track position. Had Masi conducted the restart fairly, there would've been one of 3 possible outcomes:
1. Race resumes with one lap left, with one or more back markers between Hamilton and Verstappen, whose tires would not have been as bad as what Hamilton just discarded.
2. Race restarts after ALL back markers unlap, meaning race does not resume.
3. Race is red flagged and everybody takes on new or newish tires. Except, Verstappen would have track position by virtue of staying out during safety car period.

In summary, Masi screwed Merc, nothing new. The only mistake on Merc's part was keeping Bottas for so long. Russell should've been handed the seat immediately after showing up Bottas. Russell'd have made life more difficult for Verstappen and red bull pit board, the exact opposite of Bottas, who was nowhere on Sundays. Heck, he dropped like a rock again today. I like the guy but his race pace, racecraft, and ability to handle traffic is atrocious.

[f1jcw]

Categorically terrible example to make your point. Redbull would've done the contrary move, thereby earned track position. Moreover, how would merc have known that only a subset of unlapped cars would be let through, i.e. schoolboy mistake?
They were objectively cheated out of the championship. End of story.

No .. and this sits wrong in the UK mindset; at the moment the SC came out, no one could have known how soon the car could have been cleared. No one. You could guess and opt to stay out for track position (typical conservative MB thinking), but if it would clear faster you just simply made the wrong choice.
Thát is what happened .. Masi got killed for it, but it was their own choice of options.
Never understood why they gave it away, as even with those old tires Ver could only barely pass .. Ham would have held easily with equal tires.
So anyway, in that sense imho Ispano is right ...

What you describe is a farfetched.
Let's assume Hamilton had pitted for fresh boots, and Verstappen stayed out to earn track position. Had Masi conducted the restart fairly, the were 3 possible outcomes:
1. Race resumes with one lap left, with one or more back markers between Hamilton and Verstappen, who's tires would not have been as bad as what Hamilton just discarded.
2. Race restarts after ALL back markers unlap, meaning race does not resume.
3. Race is red flagged and everybody takes on new or newish tires. Except, Verstappen would have track position by virtue of staying out during safety car period.

In summary, Masi screwed Merc, nothing new. The only mistake on Merc's part was keeping Bottas for so long. Russell should've been handed the seat immediately after showing up Bottas. Russell'd have made life more difficult for Verstappen and red bull pit board, the exact opposite of Bottas, who was nowhere on Sundays. Heck, he dropped like a rock again today. I like the guy but his race pace, racecraft, and ability to handle traffic is atrocious.

It is amazing that a year later there is some people that are unable or unwilling those simple facts you posted

[langedweil]

No .. and this sits wrong in the UK mindset; at the moment the SC came out, no one could have known how soon the car could have been cleared. No one. You could guess and opt to stay out for track position (typical conservative MB thinking), but if it would clear faster you just simply made the wrong choice.
Thát is what happened .. Masi got killed for it, but it was their own choice of options.
Never understood why they gave it away, as even with those old tires Ver could only barely pass .. Ham would have held easily with equal tires.
So anyway, in that sense imho Ispano is right ...

What you describe is a farfetched.
Let's assume Hamilton had pitted for fresh boots, and Verstappen stayed out to earn track position. Had Masi conducted the restart fairly, the were 3 possible outcomes:
1. Race resumes with one lap left, with one or more back markers between Hamilton and Verstappen, who's tires would not have been as bad as what Hamilton just discarded.
2. Race restarts after ALL back markers unlap, meaning race does not resume.
3. Race is red flagged and everybody takes on new or newish tires. Except, Verstappen would have track position by virtue of staying out during safety car period.

In summary, Masi screwed Merc, nothing new. The only mistake on Merc's part was keeping Bottas for so long. Russell should've been handed the seat immediately after showing up Bottas. Russell'd have made life more difficult for Verstappen and red bull pit board, the exact opposite of Bottas, who was nowhere on Sundays. Heck, he dropped like a rock again today. I like the guy but his race pace, racecraft, and ability to handle traffic is atrocious.

It is amazing that a year later there is some people that are unable or unwilling those simple facts you posted

It really is, isn't it ?
But let's not get Kravitzly about it, and leave that can of worms where it belongs: 2021

[ispano6]

It is amazing that a year later there is some people that are unable or unwilling those simple facts you posted

It's amazing that you guys keep bringing up last year Masi etc as if it has any bearing on this season at all. What's done is done and unfortunately for you guys nothing you or Merc says will change that. It seems some here are unwilling or unable to accept that today's race, according to most commentators, was Mercedes to lose and Wolff also admitted they got it wrong. Don't blame Max and Red Bull for that. Keep your * to yourself and hope for a better season next year. In fact, it probably would be better for Red Bull and Ferrari for Merc to end up 2nd in the constructors championship in 2022 so they get slightly less aero/cfd time.

[fourmula1]

Yeah, Russell should be dropped IMHO. It’s one of those where those comments will probably come back to haunt him. He knows what he’s doing in scenarios like that and I’m half inclined to say it’s a Mercedes way of driver coaching, with being ‘alongside’ and having rights to a corner.

Imagine what he would be saying if the shoe was on the other foot and he gets pushed out wide. Probably the only reason he didn’t complain was because it was his team mate who did it.

S'funny, but it seems more like a Red Bull way - "let them race, Michael!"

Watch the start of race into T1. That is the definition of side by side. If you make this a penalty every single time we will get to see them continue to fight for the next 2+ corners. Doesn't matter who did it, who does it, or who you are obsessed with as a driver. If you cant acknowledge that if we held the drivers to higher wheel to wheel/track limit standards like so many other series the racing would be better....idk. I am seriously sick of the "first lap incidents" too. The first lap is the most important...they are fully in control of the car in both dry and wet and know what they are doing. It's such trash.

[MadMax]

Yeah, Russell should be dropped IMHO. It’s one of those where those comments will probably come back to haunt him. He knows what he’s doing in scenarios like that and I’m half inclined to say it’s a Mercedes way of driver coaching, with being ‘alongside’ and having rights to a corner.

Imagine what he would be saying if the shoe was on the other foot and he gets pushed out wide. Probably the only reason he didn’t complain was because it was his team mate who did it.

S'funny, but it seems more like a Red Bull way - "let them race, Michael!"

Watch the start of race into T1. That is the definition of side by side. If you make this a penalty every single time we will get to see them continue to fight for the next 2+ corners. Doesn't matter who did it, who does it, or who you are obsessed with as a driver. If you cant acknowledge that if we held the drivers to higher wheel to wheel/track limit standards like so many other series the racing would be better....idk. I am seriously sick of the "first lap incidents" too. The first lap is the most important...they are fully in control of the car in both dry and wet and know what they are doing. It's such trash.

In your example, Max knew that forcing himself in to the side of Lewis like that was fairly low risk for the title race. If that had been someone not in the title race, he'd have been more circumspect. Same thing at Monza where Ricciardo was given room in the first chicane but in the same situation later in the race, Hamilton was rammed.

But apparently it's "the Mercedes way".

What you generally tend to find is that drivers do it differently depending on who the other driver is and their relative stakes in the title.

[dans79]

What you generally tend to find is that drivers do it differently depending on who the other driver is and their relative stakes in the title.

And how much they like/dislike the other driver. I know if I was on the track, I'd give certain drivers a real hard time.

[AR3-GP]

What you generally tend to find is that drivers do it differently depending on who the other driver is and their relative stakes in the title.

And how much they like/dislike the other driver. I know if I was on the track, I'd give certain drivers a real hard time.

So what's Magnussen's excuse?

[dans79]

So what's Magnussen's excuse?

Maybe he is frustrated he isn't as good as his dad!

[fourmula1]

S'funny, but it seems more like a Red Bull way - "let them race, Michael!"

Watch the start of race into T1. That is the definition of side by side. If you make this a penalty every single time we will get to see them continue to fight for the next 2+ corners. Doesn't matter who did it, who does it, or who you are obsessed with as a driver. If you cant acknowledge that if we held the drivers to higher wheel to wheel/track limit standards like so many other series the racing would be better....idk. I am seriously sick of the "first lap incidents" too. The first lap is the most important...they are fully in control of the car in both dry and wet and know what they are doing. It's such trash.

In your example, Max knew that forcing himself in to the side of Lewis like that was fairly low risk for the title race. If that had been someone not in the title race, he'd have been more circumspect. Same thing at Monza where Ricciardo was given room in the first chicane but in the same situation later in the race, Hamilton was rammed.

But apparently it's "the Mercedes way".

What you generally tend to find is that drivers do it differently depending on who the other driver is and their relative stakes in the title.

Certainly they weigh the risk as it relates to damage, dnf, points etc. That is because they are allowed to drive like this. They all have done it and all will do it if it is allowed. It ruins the racing in my opinion.

[PlatinumZealot]

I think 2021 is extremely important to where this team is now with this car and the mindset of the staff. You simple cannot ignore 2021 after all those sacrifices were made "not to develop the car and preserve the budget for 2022." Mercedes left 2021 nearly empty handed, failed miserably with their 2022 and 2023 is just another knock on effect from that.

[holeindalip]

2021 is Absolutley important, Red Bull were nowhere from ‘14-‘20. How many times did Verst. Finish 3rd in ‘20 and then be a tile contender winning 12 races in ‘21 all the way up until now.

[mendis]

I think if people are here looking at and debating how many times somebody used the radio, it's a good representation of how boring this one-horse season is.

It's very sad that at the end of 2021 the racing was actually close. They change the rules, one team cheats the budget, happily takes the non-penalty and now we are stuck with a zero championship battle for at least 3 years.

Fun times.

Why is that the teams that have done a lousy job with the new regulations doesn't get the flak and all that gets swept under the carpet with the garb of one team breaching a minor cost cap and blame FIA for the routine job they do with regulations change since decades? For a change, let's ask what are the other teams doing with 140 million dollars and billions worth of infrastructure built over years.

Realistically, does anyone with decent understanding of F1, believe for a moment that if another teams spends 400k (or 2.5 million, whichever suits your sensibilities), can remove the deficit to Red Bull, incur penalty and fight for championship? Good luck with that.

obviously its impossible to replicate this advantage but what they did in 2021 sowed the seeds to their current success. that in combination of ferrari flopping what wouldve been a close battle gave red bull the breathing room it needs this year.

If some teams chose bad concepts to develop their new generation car, then it's unwise to use a reason to blame another team that did choose right concept. My sense is, if the other teams fail to catch Red Bull even until 2030, some folks would keep blaming Red Bull's 2021 overspend.

[ringo]

Nonsense. Two incidents are not similar.
Hamilton stayed on his line. MAX went off track to push of Lewis in Brasil.
Why dont someone post some gif or replays for it to be analyzed?