This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
McLaren are showing how a team should operate. Two able drivers scoring consistently. AM likely 5th constructor by season end.
Stroll had the wing failure today, but that doesn't excuse his non-scoring run since the August break. AM did not score enough at the time with both cars when they had their car advantage.
The universe is trying to keep Stroll out of the car for some reason.
Is not true,he put always himself in those positions or problems. If he could qualify at P7 or P8 then he would have less problems. Problems always make problems...
4 places gained at the start, if the car had more pace he could have finished p4. But just like Spa 2017 where after a great start he was passed by everyone behind him because at that time the Honda engine was underpowered. You can only do so much with what you are given, great race anyways.
Alonso qualified 1.6 seconds off pole. The performance loss of this car is mind blowing. It only points to a complete destruction of their concept by a regulations tweak unless you believe that they are so incompetent that their upgrades made them slower.
People will blame them regardless because they don't know any better but to be honest it happens to everyone (happened to McLaren at the start) so it's expected.
Last edited by KimiRai on 24 Sep 2023, 11:37, edited 1 time in total.
I'm posting this here because I found it interesting it's from the Youtube channel @CiaronSmith who has some real F1 knowledge even if he's an Alonso hater I have to say (disclaimer). But it's about the lack of improvement from AM, and even the regression.
"Aston Martin Lagonda Global Holdings PLC is now down -£42.20 (~-13%) over the past month.
Take a look at the Aston Martin Y-o-Y time comparison in Suzuka qualifying (2022 vs 2023) - @astonmartinf1team
2022 - Sebastian Vettel: 1:30:554 (remember it also rained in FP2 that year, so the track probably wasn't as fast as it was in 2023).
2023 - Fernano Alonso: 1:30:560 (Q3 time)
Unless Alonso made errors on his qualifying lap (pending confirmation), Aston Martin have ended up ~+0.06 slower than they were last year, despite the fact they started 2023 with a car 2 seconds quicker at the beginning of the year, according to many experts. A car that should have taken pole at 1-2 circuits this season, in my view. It's not that they've lost time to other top teams (Mercedes, McLaren in particular have clearly surpassed them). It's that they are now slower at this track than they were last year. Shocking.
Before we continue, note that Ferrari, Alpine and Alfa Romeo were also slower in Q3 than they were last year, but this is completely different to Aston's situation. Frankly Alpine and Alfa are a mess, so let's discount those 2 teams for a moment. In the case of Ferrari, remember that their 2022 car was a title contender at one point. Ferrari did not start 2023 with a rocketship in comparison to their old car. Aston Martin on the other hand, started 2023 with a car that some were saying was 2 seconds quicker than the 2022 car. Yet now Aston Martin are slower (or if you take the Q2 time, equal) than their 2022 car. No other team has fallen by so much in terms of lap time.
This sugests the 'honeymoon' is over. The team is no longer in the top 3 on performance. But why? Here are my thoughts:
First, I am raising the possibility regarding @astonmartinf1team , that something else could be going on 'behind the scenes' (as usual in F1) that has led to this drop in speed. Readers should remember the ban on certain wing and floor elements earlier in the year (FIA technical directive) - it's highly possible this led Aston to lose more performance than other teams. Aston could also have been cheating with their car and upon discovery of this by the federation, the team probably made a 'deal' or 'settlement' with the FIA to remove certain parts. This happens often in F1 and is not publicly reported to maintain the sport's integrity.
@astonmartinf1team - if you've been cheating, come out and admit it. That would be the honorable thing to do.
Secondly, I am openly questioning the ability of either @FernandoAlonsoOficial (Fernando Alonso), or Lance Stroll to lead car development (upgrades seem to have failed). As such, I would urge Aston's executive team to look for other options given this cataclysmic drop in performance. I further question Lance Stroll's broader driving ability - he is simply not F1 material. Dan Fallows should also likely have done more to ensure the upgrades were not so ineffective. The possibility that upgrades have not worked and worsened performance cannot be ruled out either. But in addition to the engineers, the drivers also play a hand in making sure the right upgrades are brought.
Separately, to the average 12-18 year old, or 'new' F1 fan, there perhaps is not an understanding of the importance of car development, or what it really is at an inherent level. There is often no understanding among the broader public of why drivers need to have this 'skill' as a part of their toolkit in their armoury, if you will. In many ways, and without exaggeration, it's just as important a skill as driving quickly.
If as a driver, you cannot provide the team with a clear direction in which to develop a car, through precise feedback, then sooner or later, the engineers will develop the car in a wrong direction. Coupled with other teams going in the right direction, this will lead to catastrophic losses in laptime and inherent car performance.
In the case of Aston Martin they've lost not just time, but as mentioned at the beginning of this note, they've also lost colossal amounts of shareholder value as well. I don't buy into theories of track evolution. All the top teams were much quicker than they were last year.
Unacceptable. The hype has truly faded. Although given the nepotism at the team, I can't say it's bad for F1.
All said, this sport needs more transparency. If teams are cheating in @Formula1 , how dare you not tell the viewers @FIAOfficialVideo ? Utterly contemptible."
I'm posting this here because I found it interesting it's from the Youtube channel @CiaronSmith who has some real F1 knowledge even if he's an Alonso hater I have to say (disclaimer). But it's about the lack of improvement from AM, and even the regression.
"Aston Martin Lagonda Global Holdings PLC is now down -£42.20 (~-13%) over the past month.
Take a look at the Aston Martin Y-o-Y time comparison in Suzuka qualifying (2022 vs 2023) - @astonmartinf1team
2022 - Sebastian Vettel: 1:30:554 (remember it also rained in FP2 that year, so the track probably wasn't as fast as it was in 2023).
2023 - Fernano Alonso: 1:30:560 (Q3 time)
Unless Alonso made errors on his qualifying lap (pending confirmation), Aston Martin have ended up ~+0.06 slower than they were last year, despite the fact they started 2023 with a car 2 seconds quicker at the beginning of the year, according to many experts. A car that should have taken pole at 1-2 circuits this season, in my view. It's not that they've lost time to other top teams (Mercedes, McLaren in particular have clearly surpassed them). It's that they are now slower at this track than they were last year. Shocking.
Before we continue, note that Ferrari, Alpine and Alfa Romeo were also slower in Q3 than they were last year, but this is completely different to Aston's situation. Frankly Alpine and Alfa are a mess, so let's discount those 2 teams for a moment. In the case of Ferrari, remember that their 2022 car was a title contender at one point. Ferrari did not start 2023 with a rocketship in comparison to their old car. Aston Martin on the other hand, started 2023 with a car that some were saying was 2 seconds quicker than the 2022 car. Yet now Aston Martin are slower (or if you take the Q2 time, equal) than their 2022 car. No other team has fallen by so much in terms of lap time.
This sugests the 'honeymoon' is over. The team is no longer in the top 3 on performance. But why? Here are my thoughts:
First, I am raising the possibility regarding @astonmartinf1team , that something else could be going on 'behind the scenes' (as usual in F1) that has led to this drop in speed. Readers should remember the ban on certain wing and floor elements earlier in the year (FIA technical directive) - it's highly possible this led Aston to lose more performance than other teams. Aston could also have been cheating with their car and upon discovery of this by the federation, the team probably made a 'deal' or 'settlement' with the FIA to remove certain parts. This happens often in F1 and is not publicly reported to maintain the sport's integrity.
@astonmartinf1team - if you've been cheating, come out and admit it. That would be the honorable thing to do.
Secondly, I am openly questioning the ability of either @FernandoAlonsoOficial (Fernando Alonso), or Lance Stroll to lead car development (upgrades seem to have failed). As such, I would urge Aston's executive team to look for other options given this cataclysmic drop in performance. I further question Lance Stroll's broader driving ability - he is simply not F1 material. Dan Fallows should also likely have done more to ensure the upgrades were not so ineffective. The possibility that upgrades have not worked and worsened performance cannot be ruled out either. But in addition to the engineers, the drivers also play a hand in making sure the right upgrades are brought.
Separately, to the average 12-18 year old, or 'new' F1 fan, there perhaps is not an understanding of the importance of car development, or what it really is at an inherent level. There is often no understanding among the broader public of why drivers need to have this 'skill' as a part of their toolkit in their armoury, if you will. In many ways, and without exaggeration, it's just as important a skill as driving quickly.
If as a driver, you cannot provide the team with a clear direction in which to develop a car, through precise feedback, then sooner or later, the engineers will develop the car in a wrong direction. Coupled with other teams going in the right direction, this will lead to catastrophic losses in laptime and inherent car performance.
In the case of Aston Martin they've lost not just time, but as mentioned at the beginning of this note, they've also lost colossal amounts of shareholder value as well. I don't buy into theories of track evolution. All the top teams were much quicker than they were last year.
Unacceptable. The hype has truly faded. Although given the nepotism at the team, I can't say it's bad for F1.
All said, this sport needs more transparency. If teams are cheating in @Formula1 , how dare you not tell the viewers @FIAOfficialVideo ? Utterly contemptible."
I don't think he said anything we didn't suggest already.
Ciaron Smith is the biggest Alonso hater in existence, literally. He's also a Kimi fan but he's been eternally pissed that Fernando beat him in 2005 and more than tripled his points in 2014 so he has a blood feud with him. You would see him comment on every single video there is on YouTube to the point where I question his mental sanity.
Also the myth of drivers "leading car development" like he says needs to stop. One of the biggest myths out there. That'd likely be the technical director or a chief technical officer like Newey is.
Last edited by KimiRai on 24 Sep 2023, 11:46, edited 2 times in total.
We were saying this months ago, that the honeymoon was over. You could see it coming a mile off, and we all got slated for stating it.
The next thing will be Alonso making moves. He won’t stick around here for long, and it might suit Lawrence anyway, as he can sign a younger model in preparation for 26’, while keeping Lance.
The tracks at the beginning of this year suited the car. Also after Bahrain, Saudi etc we were comparing the 2023 car at tracks it was suited to with the beginning of 2022 car which was an absolute tractor in every way possible - it was equal slowest with Williams. So this inflated the sense of progress.
Now, we are comparing a car at a track which it is least suited to with the 2nd half of 2022 amr22 that was developed very well and was performing better than alpine in WCC in the 2nd half of the year, with frankly not the greatest driver lineup. With Alonso in the amr22 I think it could have done a lot better than it did. The amr22 also enjoyed high speed corners in the 2nd half of '22 whereas the AMR23 despises them
Yes the TD has probably hit the team the hardest. And the car has not been developed well - though this is impossible from the outside to disentangle from the effect of the TD. The Canada upgrade might have been perfect if the TD had not happened, for instance. But I think the doom and gloom about comparing to the amr22 with Suzuka is a bit unfair
FOM hates Fernando. Didn't show the start onboard and then publishes radio comments out of context. Nothing new and it's been the same since 2006.
Qatar is a sprint weekend so not sure whether they will bring something there. But full confidence behind the technical staff which despite everything that has happened is one of the best in the field and they'll prove it again.
Look at how TD039 killed the F1-75. Alonso went from "this is so lovely to drive" to the car looking diabolical. Stroll went from easy Q3s to out in Q1 3 races in a row.
Ride height is a very fundamental parameter for a car concept, much more so than the degree to which a front wing flexes. Even then F1-75 was never as bad or lost as much ground to virtually every other team as AM has.
I think the poor handling has a lot has to do with their upgrades to make the car less draggy. Front wing alone cannot account for that much deficit in my opinion.
Updated TD39 was about ride height. TD18 is flexi-wings. They had both as a double whammy.
TD39 was not really about ride height. It was a way to measure porpoising and force teams to increase ride hight if there was too much, to protect drivers.
It was made irrelevant by the 2023 rule change that increased the minimum floor height by 15mm.
It's been mentioned here often that AMR was the 2nd fastest team at the beginning of the year. When I go back and look, they only had 3 Quali podiums. Miami 2nd and it was very hot. Monaco a 2nd...The other was a 3ird in Australia. That doesn't sound like they were the 2nd fastest. Sounds like often they were out qualified by faster cars.
The made most their points on conserving tires for race pace.
Clear to me that alot of teams had more DF during Quali. Naturally the new tougher tires has nullified their kinder on tires in races trim edge.
Last edited by diffuser on 24 Sep 2023, 21:10, edited 2 times in total.
