Are F1 penalties still adequate?

[AR3-GP]

Anyone here?

No penalties to discuss at the moment. Presumably with blocking now being OK, there will be many fewer penalties to discuss.

Blocking was deemed okay since Spain when Russell crashed into Hamilton on a qualy lap. Most all incidents since then have been unpunished. Sainz had several of them. Singapore is not a flash point. It’s consistent with the past.

Only Leclerc has been hit twice, but perhaps this is the universe correcting itself after his penalty free 2019 season….

[codetower]

Sainz in Canada, Yuki at the Dutch GP… It’s a little suspicious. Non one, not two, but THREE different instances in the same session and not a single penalty. C’mon.

[DiogoBrand]

In my opinion, as long as the FIA does not implement proper QA and QC for how penalties are applied, it's just a lottery.
I mean, there should be clear rules for the penalties applied to each infraction, for example: Causing a collision: 5s, if you cause a DNF with said collision, then it's 10s. There should be a Standard Operating Procedure for that sort of stuff, and all penalties applied during a weekend should be reviewed, with the conclusions retrofed into the procedure to continuously improve it.

I know not all incidents are black or white, but without even making an effort to improve that aspect, we can never expect to have any sort of consistence, especially considering events like Abu Dhabi 2021, where even clear regulations aren't followed in order to "improve the show".

[Sevach]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/pere ... /10521766/

Perez penalized for colision with Albon, Perez keeps his 8th place.

Aka "5s penalties are meaningless" exhibit 2390873.

[SiLo]

Causing a collision should carry a far harsher penalty in my opinion. Irrespective of outcomes, it can be expensive for other teams, and outright dangerous for drivers. 5s is pathetic.

[chrisc90]

Points to note from Japan.

Intra-team battles/offences need to be dealt with the same as any other offence.
+5 seconds isnt enough still. This has been talked about on the post-race show on F1Tv commentators.
Sending a car out after its retired to serve a penalty before the next race should be tightened up. I imagine we'll see a 97% minimum race coverage will be dropped in like Le-Mans for penalties to be considered 'served'

[organic]

Albon: "The drivers don't really learn anything [from the penalties] because the penalties aren't severe enough."

[Sevach]

Drivers making some noise about this is a positive.

[basti313]

Causing a collision should carry a far harsher penalty in my opinion. Irrespective of outcomes, it can be expensive for other teams, and outright dangerous for drivers. 5s is pathetic.

I think this is the one and only point.
The 5 and 10sec penalty was introduced to judge MINOR infringements.
The example how the 5sec penalty was introduced was that a driver touches the white line at pit exit. They introduced the 5sec to judge something like this adequately and not with a drive through.

Giving out 5 or 10sec penalties if a driver turns around another car or sends it into the wall is nothing but an abuse of the rule.

[TFSA]

Points to note from Japan.

Intra-team battles/offences need to be dealt with the same as any other offence.

Sorry, but no. This would lead to team order galore, where teams would order their drivers (either before the race or on the radio) to never race each other, because it significantly increases the risk of doing so.

I get why people have mixed feeling about this, but i believe that this would significantly decrease the quality of the racing, especially in races where teammates are next to each other. It would just be procession.

Serious intra-team offenses should still be punished of course, including really dumb or dangerous moves.

[chrisc90]

Little bit contradictory there don’t you think?

Maybe o was a little premature with the Japan specific comment after people evaluated the situation but I don’t see why a racing/driving offence should be dealt with any more lenient than another team.
As I said, the consequences of a lack of penalty can affect other teams.

If there is a drive by standards issues, it should be dealt with equally, irrespective of those involved.

[TFSA]

Little bit contradictory there don’t you think?

Maybe o was a little premature with the Japan specific comment after people evaluated the situation but I don’t see why a racing/driving offence should be dealt with any more lenient than another team.
As I said, the consequences of a lack of penalty can affect other teams.

If there is a drive by standards issues, it should be dealt with equally, irrespective of those involved.

Other drivers/teams aren't entitled to benefit from the tussles of others.

Also, if you think about it, it's not really different than most other sports where there's multiple people on the same team. If a football player tackles a player from an opposing team, he's likely to get a penalty. However, if he tackles a player from his own team (non-deliberately), then the referee is very unlikely to punish the team by issuing a penalty to the player. And by the same standard, i also think that anyone who would be calling for a penalty in that situation would likely be regarded as a lunatic

So I really don't see the issue. And as mentioned, it's gonna be bad for the racing. Do you really want teams to not have their drivers compete? I'm really struggling to see the benefits of your suggestion, other than some perceived ideal of fairness that i don't think the drivers, nor teams, really want. Some fans might think they want it, but I think they will change their tune pretty quickly once they realize that it will rob the sport on a lot of battles between teammates and become team-orders galore.

[chrisc90]

I disagree there that other drivers and teams aren't benefitted. If car 1 from team A pushes car 2 from team A off the track or causes a collision, and if by your saying they dont really deserve a penalty, then your looking at 10seconds of penalties that havent been correctly applied if say car 1 from team A pushed car 1/2 of team B off the track. If there is no penalty, say 10seconds for causing a collision (both cars still racing) then surely the cars behind them, within 10seconds would be losing out due to a penalty that wasnt equally applied across the grid. Thats a potential position on track depending on the gaps. So absolutely others can 'benefit' from a penalty not equally applied.

Nothing stopping team battles, as long as its fair racing. If you can race fairly between other teams, then the same standard should be applied for a intra-team battle/tussle. Literally no excuse for being allowed to get away with a unfair team battle in my opinion.

What is fan of driver A going to think when driver B of the same team forces them off the track, or moves under braking when its 'between teams?'

[hairy_scotsman]

The problem, imho, is that the stewards focus on time, which is not ultimately what drivers are trying to gain. Only final classification positions matter. This isn't a time trial, so the significance of time penalties is a variable which depends on too many circumstances to be fair or effective.

The penalties should have teeth and leave marks. Drop them x number of positions in the final classification and be done with it. Positions are what the drivers are striving for after all. Not time. Time is merely a means of gaining positions which can be compensated for once a position has been gained, as we see all the time.

Final classification position penalties:
- take much of the time pressure off the stewards re: making a quick decision
- preclude working your way out of the penalty
- are a strong deterrent that will alter driver behavior

[AR3-GP]

The problem, imho, is that the stewards focus on time, which is not ultimately what drivers are trying to gain. Only final classification positions matter. This isn't a time trial, so the significance of time penalties is a variable which depends on too many circumstances to be fair or effective.

The penalties should have teeth and leave marks. Drop them x number of positions in the final classification and be done with it. Positions are what the drivers are striving for after all. Not time. Time is merely a means of gaining positions which can be compensated for once a position has been gained, as we see all the time.

Final classification position penalties:
- take much of the time pressure off the stewards re: making a quick decision
- preclude working your way out of the penalty
- are a strong deterrent that will alter driver behavior

Position penalties also have flaws. Someone who is racing for the lead will lose points, while someone racing for 10th won't lose much.

You could go with point penalties, but then run the risk of dropping some people into the negative....


Every method has a weakness.