2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[organic]

I would also argue that RB’s level would significantly come down, under the pressure of actual competition.

Yep, the rules of racing have changed some, so some of the stuff that was allowed, wouldn't be now.

Indeed. It's also obvious that max has an easy time because everyone knows that he's not their race. When everything comes together more, naturally other drivers will contest more, slowing them down on alternate strategies

There's just many things that will, as the competition eases closer, bring them within range. Pressure causing mistakes is the main one

[Vaexa]

Title number 8 looks less and less likely with george on the team and if the car is equal or slightly slower tgan rbr. Max does not have to worry about an intra team fight and he will surely benefit from merc infighting. Thats why imo they definitely need a faster car so lewis can concentrate on beating george only. For those who think merc will ask george to step aside well they wont. Unless he is mathematically too far behind in the championship they will let them race. Example: Merc actually asked lewis to move aside for bottas in austria 21’. He lost that position and also lost out to norris. Lost 6 points because of that. That is just how Merc operates. Bonkers sometimes.

Hamilton had undertray damage from running over the turn 9/10 kerbs that race which is why he was asked to move aside for Bottas, who had no such damage. This is also why he took an extra pit stop, to alleviate the resulting rear tyre degradation.

i know, but when it's obvioius that it was a two dog fight in that championship i would not have asked him to let Bottas through. If bottas got through on his own then so be it. Points were lost when they didn't have to be.

Hamilton was overtaken on track by Norris that very same race and was suffering from enough additional rear tyre deg to necessitate an additional stop. Getting Bottas stuck behind him would've meant risking turning a 2-4 into a 3-4 instead. At this point Mercedes were 40 points adrift of Red Bull in the constructors' standings, mind you.

Mercedes are out to maximise their points on a given day. Hamilton wasn't in a position to hold off his teammate or, as Mercedes correctly surmised, a charging Norris, so he was asked to move over to give the other Mercedes car the best possible chance to retain P2. There is absolutely nothing ''bonkers'' about that. Hamilton would not have held P2 irrespective of being asked to move over for Bottas or not, as proven by him losing P3 to Norris fairly handily and having to make an extra stop just to avoid falling off further. Mercedes knew it, so they made the call.

[dans79]

As a RB fan, I can agree. They are doing an awesome job, no need for improvement.

I'm very much hopping the team brings Horner the fight he doesn't want next year!

[Mosin123]

What has happened in the two years since?
Poor strategy, poor development, signs of disharmony between drivers?

And still find them self 2nd in the constructors ( for now ). can't be that poor.

As a RB fan, I can agree. They are doing an awesome job, no need for improvement.

Wouldnt say awesome, but to suggest being 2nd in any comp is poor, is a disrepect to A, the compitition, and B, those who compete also eg Ferrari, McLaren, AM, and so on... always room for improvement, even when winning

[Hammerfist]

Hamilton had undertray damage from running over the turn 9/10 kerbs that race which is why he was asked to move aside for Bottas, who had no such damage. This is also why he took an extra pit stop, to alleviate the resulting rear tyre degradation.

i know, but when it's obvioius that it was a two dog fight in that championship i would not have asked him to let Bottas through. If bottas got through on his own then so be it. Points were lost when they didn't have to be.

Hamilton was overtaken on track by Norris that very same race and was suffering from enough additional rear tyre deg to necessitate an additional stop. Getting Bottas stuck behind him would've meant risking turning a 2-4 into a 3-4 instead. At this point Mercedes were 40 points adrift of Red Bull in the constructors' standings, mind you.

Mercedes are out to maximise their points on a given day. Hamilton wasn't in a position to hold off his teammate or, as Mercedes correctly surmised, a charging Norris, so he was asked to move over to give the other Mercedes car the best possible chance to retain P2. There is absolutely nothing ''bonkers'' about that. Hamilton would not have held P2 irrespective of being asked to move over for Bottas or not, as proven by him losing P3 to Norris fairly handily and having to make an extra stop just to avoid falling off further. Mercedes knew it, so they made the call.

He lost p3 because he didnt have drs. Norris would have struggled to overtake bottas if bottas had drs from hamilton. You may be right that he might have lost the position anyway but for me i still wouldn’t have asked him to move over. Rbr would not. I can promise you that.

[CMSMJ1]

Loads of RB AD21 related stuff into recycle bin -

[CHT]

The change of concept regarding the lateral structures of the single-seater has already been partially introduced this season, with the new sides already oriented towards the Red Bull philosophy, but, obviously, it was not possible to carry out a redesign and modification of the components of the Power Unit for the current season. The 2024 car, however, will be born directly with the new philosophy , both as regards the bottom and the upper part of the car, and the space limitations will become decidedly less stringent , with the possibility of a " re-packaging” of the drive unit which will then give much more comfort to the internal components, gaining in reliability (and therefore in percentage of use) and, above all, obviously, in pure power . We spoke with an engineer from the team who confirmed all this, stating that the aggregate that Mercedes currently uses was designed for the zero pods concept , with decidedly small dimensions and a cooling system that is inevitably reduced to a minimum.

https://www.formulapassion.it/opinioni/ ... nza-motore

Merc zero pod design concept is a continuity of past Merc design philosophy of running engine at higher operating temperature to reduce cooling requirements. I believe the current Merc engine is designed and built for this purpose to support the zero pod design. To revert to a more conventional design like RBR, with better cooling it should allow the engine to run a little harder. But I am not sure if this will translate into any noticeable advantage since both AM and Mclaren are already running RBR side pod design using the same Merc engine.

I believe the issue Merc is facing this season is the lack of rear downforce, not so much about engine power. that being said, any extra power will certainly help.

[Vaexa]

The change of concept regarding the lateral structures of the single-seater has already been partially introduced this season, with the new sides already oriented towards the Red Bull philosophy, but, obviously, it was not possible to carry out a redesign and modification of the components of the Power Unit for the current season. The 2024 car, however, will be born directly with the new philosophy , both as regards the bottom and the upper part of the car, and the space limitations will become decidedly less stringent , with the possibility of a " re-packaging” of the drive unit which will then give much more comfort to the internal components, gaining in reliability (and therefore in percentage of use) and, above all, obviously, in pure power . We spoke with an engineer from the team who confirmed all this, stating that the aggregate that Mercedes currently uses was designed for the zero pods concept , with decidedly small dimensions and a cooling system that is inevitably reduced to a minimum.

https://www.formulapassion.it/opinioni/ ... nza-motore

Merc zero pod design concept is a continuity of past Merc design philosophy of running engine at higher operating temperature to reduce cooling requirements. I believe the current Merc engine is designed and built for this purpose to support the zero pod design. To revert to a more conventional design like RBR, with better cooling it should allow the engine to run a little harder. But I am not sure if this will translate into any noticeable advantage since both AM and Mclaren are already running RBR side pod design using the same Merc engine.

I believe the issue Merc is facing this season is the lack of rear downforce, not so much about engine power. that being said, any extra power will certainly help.

Has the ''higher base operating temperature'' thing ever been backed up by anyone who actually worked on a Mercedes engine, or who would have inside knowledge of it? It feels like the sort of journalist lore that someone comes up with, then gets repeated until it just becomes an accepted thing in people's minds. If ''higher operating temperature for less cooling requirements'' was an actual thing with no tradeoffs I think every manufacturer on the grid (and likely every racing engine manufacturer in the world) would do it, so I'm kind of skeptical.

[CHT]

https://www.formulapassion.it/opinioni/ ... nza-motore

Merc zero pod design concept is a continuity of past Merc design philosophy of running engine at higher operating temperature to reduce cooling requirements. I believe the current Merc engine is designed and built for this purpose to support the zero pod design. To revert to a more conventional design like RBR, with better cooling it should allow the engine to run a little harder. But I am not sure if this will translate into any noticeable advantage since both AM and Mclaren are already running RBR side pod design using the same Merc engine.

I believe the issue Merc is facing this season is the lack of rear downforce, not so much about engine power. that being said, any extra power will certainly help.

Has the ''higher base operating temperature'' thing ever been backed up by anyone who actually worked on a Mercedes engine, or who would have inside knowledge of it? It feels like the sort of journalist lore that someone comes up with, then gets repeated until it just becomes an accepted thing in people's minds. If ''higher operating temperature for less cooling requirements'' was an actual thing with no tradeoffs I think every manufacturer on the grid (and likely every racing engine manufacturer in the world) would do it, so I'm kind of skeptical.

I believe this is the journalist who started it.

[Vaexa]

Merc zero pod design concept is a continuity of past Merc design philosophy of running engine at higher operating temperature to reduce cooling requirements. I believe the current Merc engine is designed and built for this purpose to support the zero pod design. To revert to a more conventional design like RBR, with better cooling it should allow the engine to run a little harder. But I am not sure if this will translate into any noticeable advantage since both AM and Mclaren are already running RBR side pod design using the same Merc engine.

I believe the issue Merc is facing this season is the lack of rear downforce, not so much about engine power. that being said, any extra power will certainly help.

Has the ''higher base operating temperature'' thing ever been backed up by anyone who actually worked on a Mercedes engine, or who would have inside knowledge of it? It feels like the sort of journalist lore that someone comes up with, then gets repeated until it just becomes an accepted thing in people's minds. If ''higher operating temperature for less cooling requirements'' was an actual thing with no tradeoffs I think every manufacturer on the grid (and likely every racing engine manufacturer in the world) would do it, so I'm kind of skeptical.

I believe this is the journalist who started it.

Do you have a timestamp and/or specific quote? I'm unfortunately not in a position to watch a video on their 2020 car right now, but I am interested in the source of this claim.

[Mattchu]

This power unit operates at elevated temperatures compared to the previous year. Being able to run hotter means that for the same everything else we can make smaller radiators in the car and keep the car cool.

This is what Allison says from around 3.50

[Vaexa]

This power unit operates at elevated temperatures compared to the previous year. Being able to run hotter means that for the same everything else we can make smaller radiators in the car and keep the car cool.

This is what Alison says from around 3.50

Cheers for the quote and timestamp. It all sounds a bit fairytale to me but these are esoteric engines, anyway, so I'll take it at face value.

[CHT]

[quote=Mattchu post_id=1164238 time=1696432735 user_id=25862]
[quote]This power unit operates at elevated temperatures compared to the previous year. Being able to run hotter means that for the same everything else we can make smaller radiators in the car and keep the car cool.[/quote]

This is what Allison says from around 3.50
[/quote]

Considering the timeline, I would say that by early 2021 Merc must have decided on the continuation of the same design philosophy which has already won 7th consecutive WCC. So for W13, Merc may have adopted the cart-before-the-horse approach, ie. to use the engine and zero side pod package for performance gain and the entire car could be designed around it. This could be the reason why Merc is unable to modify their aero package to adopt the RBR-style concept as quickly as Mclaren and AM.

Suppose Merc decides to run the engine harder for W15, will this lead to higher fuel consumption?

[rifrafs2kees]

All things being equal, an engine is more efficient the hotter it runs, provided its material properties can tolerate the conditions. So if Merc powerplant can be run relatively hotter, they could easily adopt redbull-like aero philosophy, yet maintain smaller radiator apertures and get the best of both worlds.

I therefore don't buy the speculation that a perceived need to run the engine hotter led to zero pod. It is totally conceivable that the reverse occurred, i.e., a desire for tighter body work influenced engine design.

I do however, wonder if merc failed to accurately project the impact of badge board removal from the current rule-set. It seems Newey fully grasped the implications and correctly focused on using the bodywork to generate sufficient outwash and do away with the problem. Merc seems to have accepted a compromise of some dirty air over the diffuser, assuming shear mass flow afforded by zero pod concept would sufficiently compensate for laminar flow shortcomings. Indeed the compromise seems to pay off at high altitude/low pressure, where shear mass flow is critical. Everywhere else, the dirty air bites.

[georgekyr]

In this train of thought I am just wondering. All client teams of Merc are getting the engine along with the cooling sub-system ready. The build the car around that without being able to change the shape of it.
It is not irrational to say that with better cooling you are able to push the engine more to the limit keeping the same operating temperature. This could be with a richer air-fuel mixture or a few more rpms to the limiter. This in theory can improve things and lets assume you get 5-10 ponies out of this.
The client teams and I am looking more at McLaren will be able to utilize that 5-10 extra ponies as well. And if their aero-package is still better than Merc's at the start of the next season they might be the leading team and not the works team...