Track limits ideas

[hollus]

After the last Qatar race, and not for the first time this season, we have the track limits discussion...

First of all, a link to a couple of recent treads on the matter:
viewtopic.php?t=29873
viewtopic.php?t=29448

Second, feel free to use this to discuss track limits in general.

And now an idea that I think would be easy, fast, cheap, low tech, and not perfect. (perfect being the enemy of the good).

Take a typical corner: in, say, 5 different positions, you install a laser trap, just a pointer and a sensor, or maybe laser pointer, reflector and sensor, drawing a tangent to the corner 1.8 (1.82?) m outside the while line, about 30 cm high. These are cheap and easy to install and adjust and test, say the Thursday before the race.
If anything cuts the beam, a pic is automatically taken and sent to race control. And then a human checks it. I reckon that a couple of humans could keep up with a race or a Q session in almost real time, but all "beam cuts" are registered, with position, pic and time stamp. So they can be checked later if needed.
Now, 5 beams per corner is not perfect, and might miss a 2 cm, 0.1 second excursion of the line, but it is consistent, transparent to all and it will catch any large excursions. Place a couple extra in a couple of strategic positions if you want. The beams become the race track limits, and one could even paint the lines, or paint pointers, to reflect this.
With a certain time threshold, they should work even in the rain, and it is easy enough to have a "is there a car in the pic?" filter for false positives.
The sensors could work at any height of the tire, so corners with moderate slope changes can also be covered, and if needed, a reflector can be placed in a special place.

Not 100% fail-proof, not 100% precise, and not always 100% fair (hence the human in the loop), but I think a F1 race can afford a 100 or so automatic laser traps, my elevator can afford a few, so...

Thoughts?

Here an example of what 5 traps could achieve in a random corner, Suzuka, turn 2:

[TFSA]

Thoughts?

I'll say something similar to what i said in the Qatar thread: because F1 cars differs in sizes, and also use different parts, different cars will trigger that system in different ways. Even with human judgement introduced, my worry is that that system might fail to flag some cars, either because they're slightly smaller, or because their parts are less protruding. If, for example, Mercedes still used the zero pod concept, i can imagine situations where they might not trigger the system, where a side pod of another car would (or a piece of the floor, venturi enhances etc. would trigger).

So you'd have to run the system rather aggressively to make sure you catch everything, which would lead to a lot of false alarms and a heavy workload.

In addition there can be legitimate reasons for going off track, like being pushed off. If all you're doing is sending a ton of pictures to a bunch of people to quickly judge and then move on to the next case, they might miss a legitimate reason trying to catch up with the workload for an aggressive system. They'd just be going "check, next, check next" at a rapid pace.

Finally we have the weather concerns again for such a system. Lasers and rain don't mix particularly well. And also you have concerns where to put the laser equipment up, because a car might run into it if it goes off track. Going by your suggestion with 5 lasers at a height of 30 centimeters, each corner would need up 10 pieces of equipment mounted at ground height (5 lasers and 5 reflectors/receivers).

I think the best bet for an automated system we could implement is high-mounted cameras with AI set up on the inside of the corners filming the outside line. It's not perfect, but could work even in semi bad weather. There's no risk of it being hit by cars either.

[hollus]

So far, it is a fair assumption that all cars are as wide as allowed, it makes for the fastest cornering. And track limits are already judged at the tires, the sidepod won’t protrude further.

As said, the perfect solution, that works in every case, in every weather, with zero misses… is a never implemented, infinite cost solution.

But a camera in a very high place is also a cool solution. If only we had light, small devices capable of autonomously hovering over a spot and cheap, vibration resistant, self orienting cameras…

[gazza42000]

I don't usually post here - long time lurker tho'. Instead of trying to use technology, just rewrite the rules - the white line is the track limit everywhere, and you may not cross it with any part of the car, and since the kerbs are outside the white line they become superflous and can be removed completely.

[slinger]

I think it would all be more controllable if the center line of the car became the reference for track limits.
The kerb would be the warning to the drive as to were his limits are and you would technically have half the car still on track. The floor of the car is already close to the track ,so could a colour sensor not be used to scan for the white line edge of the track to trigger a time delete with an immediate warning on the drivers dash.

[FW17]

I don't usually post here - long time lurker tho'. Instead of trying to use technology, just rewrite the rules - the white line is the track limit everywhere, and you may not cross it with any part of the car, and since the kerbs are outside the white line they become superflous and can be removed completely.

Very sensible idea. Outside tyre and inside tyre on the line would be considered as car beyond the track, just as how it was with the pit lane line a couple of years back.

With cars having vibration sensors, if they run on the kerb it could trigger an automatic investigation by the stewards.

[SiLo]

Just make the curbs thinner. Why can an entire car be on the curb when its almost 2m wide? Have a 1m curb and then a strip of grass beyond the track before the tarmac runoff starts.

[FW17]

Just make the curbs thinner. Why can an entire car be on the curb when its almost 2m wide? Have a 1m curb and then a strip of grass beyond the track before the tarmac runoff starts.

Safety for non F1 and non racing category events

[DDopey]

The feedback of the drivers was that they could not see or feel the track limits. As soon as you need technology to detect track limit violations you are fighting symptoms. Drivers want to stay within track limits but need to see or feel those track limits.

[SiLo]

Just make the curbs thinner. Why can an entire car be on the curb when its almost 2m wide? Have a 1m curb and then a strip of grass beyond the track before the tarmac runoff starts.

Safety for non F1 and non racing category events

If we try to solve for this as well, it needs to be a technology solution. At which point we just end up going round in circles complaining about things because drivers will push it to the limit all the time and inevitably go over it.

[FW17]

Just make the curbs thinner. Why can an entire car be on the curb when its almost 2m wide? Have a 1m curb and then a strip of grass beyond the track before the tarmac runoff starts.

Safety for non F1 and non racing category events

If we try to solve for this as well, it needs to be a technology solution. At which point we just end up going round in circles complaining about things because drivers will push it to the limit all the time and inevitably go over it.

Even from a technology point of view having all 4 wheels within the white lines is easier than 4 wheels outside the white lines.

Also the lines colour or the kerb colour should be changed from white.

[Big Tea]

Switch the wording of the reg and make it as in all other sports that the line is 'out' and nothing but the breaking of the beam matters. (except possibly overhanging bodywork , which would have to be addressed (ie. banned))

[hollus]

In soccer the line is most definitively in. In basketball it is out.

[flynfrog]

Move the gravel back to the edge of the curb and the problem goes away

[Rodak]

Move the gravel back to the edge of the curb and the problem goes away

Yep. All these technical solutions are just BS. Make the track punish the offenders. How many tracks are there in the schedule where this is not a problem? Copy them. This is a solution in search of a problem and, from the responses here, the more difficult the solution the better. This is not rocket science.