2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[AR3-GP]

https://spotify.link/oBE4XGOuYDb (interview with him starts around 15:42)

James Allison talking about the W14 and the 15 if anyone's interested. He says the floor in Austin is only worth about a tenth but says it's to produce downforce in the right place, make the car resistant to bouncing especially when they add downforce and that "it should be good at any circuit" going forward. Even though it's worth a tenth I wonder how much more it will allow the drivers to push the car and get more out of it

This update seems more productive than Allison is admitting to…

[Cs98]

Allison talking about design and driver feedback from F1 Nation.

I think that drivers sometimes conflate identifying a problem with knowing what the solution is. Where it’s a massive help is the accurate description of what is difficult about extracting lap time from the car.

If they can say ‘here it is letting me down because the front axle is too weak, here it’s letting me down because the rear axle is too weak. Here, it just feels bizarre and I don’t trust it’ that’s ever so helpful because you can have a million pressure sensors on the car, loads of load cells, accelerometers up the ying yang, but ultimately, those are a little bit sort of stunted in their ability to tell you truly what the car is doing.

The driver is a much better sensor. So if a driver says ‘the car’s lacking rear downforce, bang, I’ve solved it, go to the rear downforce shop, get me some downforce’ then that’s the point where it becomes slightly less helpful.

But at that point, we just have to accept the car is lacking in a certain thing and it’s our job as Lewis rightly points out.

He doesn’t design the car, it’s our job to respond with the solutions that bring that. But I think that he could rightfully say that both he and George [Russell] had been saying a particular consistent thing about the car since the first laps of the 2022 cousin of this one and the 2023 version inherited that same behaviour and we have been slow to react, slow to fix.

[chrisc90]

We've heard it countless time how much time the upgrades are worth - and to be fair, they have been a little bit off the mark/expectations each time. So it will certainly be interesting to see how this upgrade performs given a lot of being said that its around the base for the W15 package.

[Mosin123]

If the current car was setting the pace (or if there was no MV - see the alternative championship thread…), would this car be ‘hated’, or would it just be considered to be another ‘diva’???

I would guess it depends on how competitive it has been at the races and the feed back from the drivers, Merc has not looked good all year, honestly shocked LH is 3rd and in with a ( small ) chance of 2nd in what most agree has mainly been the 4th best car over the season so far.

Take LH out of that Merc, and you have GR fighting for 6th, 7th, and 8th could even end up 9th given how well McLaren are performing and Oscar of late... that doesnt paint a pretty picture at all, for a team expected by most, including them selfs, to be challanging for podiums at every race.

Why are you shocked? AM have fallen off a cliff performance-wise and Ferrari have had shocking race pace for most of the season. The competition behind RB hasn't exactly been stellar.

Russell dropped at least 30pts through his silly 'rookie error' crashes in Canada and Singapore. He should really be on 160pts+ right now at least - ahead of both Ferrari's and well on his way to overhaul Alonso. Even that is with his engine failure in Australia.

Its not right to paint a picture of lost points with out also posting those other teams and drivers who have lost points through errors / penaltys and reliability, Big shout outs to Ferrari the whole team, Perez, Charles, Sainz, Norris, and Stroll..

Has been either a McLaren, Ferrari or an AM finish a head of the Mercs at every single race but Australia and Spain.

Merc and LH are a head of Ferrari because LH and Merc as a team have made less costly mistakes over the course of the season, and Ferrari had tyre wear issues at the start of the season ( Still managed to finished a head in Bahrain with it though so cant use tyre wear as an excuse ), But most of Ferraris issues have been team / driver related rather than a pace issue. Hasnt Charles set a new record for spins in a season?

A head of AM because AM are feeling the effects of a change in the regulations, which they have spent all its development time sorting out, which is why they havent made any progress development wise over the course of the season and for a team that started 2nd fastest to now being 5th fastest, its a picture easy to paint, dispite not being on the podium for 4 races now, Alonso is still right behind LH in 4th, Alonso has had 7 podiums...

A head of McLaren becasue McLaren wasnt fast till Silverstone after its upgrade, Since then it has been the 2nd best car on the grid close with Ferrari, with 7 podium spots in the last 8 races between the two McLaren drivers, LH hasnt finished a head of both Mclarens since the Silverstone race.

So yes, im shocked LH is 3rd.

[Mosin123]

I think Ferrari has been faster all season overall. They worse "low" (Spain, Miami & Zandvoorst) but keep in mind that both driver did big mistakes at some point and they had more issue with reliability than both Merc : Leclerc DNF in 3rd at Barhain, Leclerc DNF in Australia, Sainz penalty put him out of the point while he was confortably running at 4th in Australia, Leclerc had to take an engine penalty in Saudia Arabia, in Monaco Sainz mistakes made him lost and easy 4th place behind a slowly running Ocon in 3rd. In Spain, Leclerc did his worst race since he's a Ferrari driver imo. In Canada, both Ferrari were probably 2nd fastest when you look at their pace in clear air, but the team dropped the ball with both cars out in Q2. In Austria, Sainz penalties made him lost a well earned 4th place (keep in mind Leclerc finished 2nd). Silverstone is a classic Ferrari strategic masterclass, but they were probably 5th & 6th that weekend. In Belgium since DNF after a first lap incident while Leclerc finished 3rd confortably. Zandvoorst was another nightmare for Leclerc after damaging the car in the first lap. Singapore, Leclerc managed a PU issue which probably prevented him to join the fight for the win. And in Qatar Sainz couldn't even start.
I will not do the mathematics but you get it. For Merc I can only say Hamilton had to DNF in Qatar and Russell made 2 rookies mistakes (Canada & Singapore) and that's it really (I can also add some unfortunate qualy).

Also Ferrari had more pole, they are the only one who beat RB. And on some week end they were clear cut 2nd fast (Monza, Spa, Austria, even Canada when you look at there average race pace, & ofc Singapore). The only race were Merc was clear cut 2nd faster was Spain.

To that, I will add two things i) if your point is right why is Russell so far off ? +60pts when you battle in the midfield is huge ii) Hamilton did a pretty solid job, exactly because he has managed to beat/or at least split each cars when they were at their peak performance this year (so Alonso, then the Ferrari, and even at some point the McL but now ther're too fast) : i.e he managed to keep Alonso behind in Australia, which was pretty unexpected, and Stroll behind in Barhain (I know it's funny know but Stroll was fast at the beginning of the year, and Russell finished behind him this race), same for Baku where Stroll finished ahead of Russell but behind Hamilton. When Ferrari became much much faster Hamilton kept them behind in Canada, while Russell hit the wall (he DNF but he would've finished behind them due to his mistake due to their amazing pace that race). Same for Silverstone where Hamilton end up ahead of Piastri (lucky we have to say). In Hungary, Russell overtook both Ferrari at the last minute, but ended up behind Piastri, while Hamilton was splitting both McLaren.
I will not even mention Singapore... In Japan, again Hamilton splitted both Ferrari while Russell finished behind both.

If we do a counterfactual (I do not change the others teams points for sake of simplicity, but you will get my point) were Hamilton had scored as many points as Russell this will be the WCC standings :
- Ferrari : 298 pts
- Mercedes : 264 pts
- Aston Martin : 230 pts
- McLaren : 219 pts

It's not the same year for Merc without Hamilton in that car

If we do a counterfactual (I do not change the others teams points for sake of simplicity, but you will get my point) were Hamilton had scored as many points as Russell this will be the WCC standings :

Let us do this excercise for real instead of adjusting one team and not the other.

So for Russell, in Australia he was on for P2, Canada top 4, Zandvoort top 8 minimum, Singapore top 3. That's like 50 points worth of retirements at least. You look at a guy like Leclerc who has also had 4 retirements, he has lost maybe 20-30 points from those based on pace and position. Taking mistakes and unreliability out of the equation would place Russell ahead of both Ferraris. The Merc is just better in the races, the Ferrari has too much deg. So I'm not shocked Lewis is P3, that is where he ought to be based on the pace of the car. Russell's costly mistakes are what have put him and the team in a position where it looks kinda close with Ferrari.

But GR didnt finish 3rd in Singapore, LH did, and only team orders kept him in front of LH till he hit the wall, But charles lost 3 places under the Safety car double stacking, so he should have finished 2nd, which puts both Mercs out of the podium places.... Unless we cherry picking which events / mistakes / penaltys and so on we are counting like.... so if GR was supposed to finish 5 th taking out mistakes / penatlys / walls / team orders. then he doesnt lose " that many points " from his close encounter with the wall, and both Ferraris finish in front.....

[AR3-GP]

It's much more efficient to just look at the average race pace than to be concerned with incidents. Hamilton is where Mercedes is, pace wise on average. They have been consistently near the front. Mercedes never had the lows of Aston and Mclaren. Russell is behind because of mistakes and one technical DNF but that does not reflect where the car was pace wise.

[PlatinumZealot]

COTA is another Hamilton track. Could be a podium with the floor upgrade which James Allison is trying to downplay...

George will be problem here unfortunately. And i don't mean for Lewis but for the team. He has a way of trying too hard on Hamilton tracks. I'm really afraid he will scupper the chances of a Mercedes podium.

[PlatinumZealot]

LH can insist on copying RBR or McLaren etc, but the car may end up not suiting his driving style.

What is his driving style because mercedes have been multiple cars with differing strengths over the past decade... and he has largely managed to get the most out of all of them.

Even this current thing, which he openly hates.

Ultimately, if you have something that can win. Then its up to you...nobody wants something that is comfortable and slow. 17 years of doing this thing, I think he has proven he knows what to do with a winning package

If the current car was setting the pace (or if there was no MV - see the alternative championship thread…), would this car be ‘hated’, or would it just be considered to be another ‘diva’???

If "there was no Max" is a bold insinuation that Perez won't perform better when Max is gone.

Would make a good topic in the RedBull thread.

But to answer your point... Yes the car would stull be hated because even when pushed it falls behind other cars in qualifying. Race pace might be better for the Ferrari and Aston of they weren't stretching out their hands to catch RedBull too.

[AR3-GP]

COTA is another Hamilton track. Could be a podium with the floor upgrade which James Allison is trying to downplay...

George will be problem here unfortunately. And i don't mean for Lewis but for the team. He has a way of trying too hard on Hamilton tracks. I'm really afraid he will scupper the chances of a Mercedes podium.

I suspect that Toto has had a word with both drivers after Qatar's boiling point...and Ham/Russell have lost their "independence" for the rest of the season. Team orders will be swift and without hesitation like Mclaren.

[dans79]

COTA is another Hamilton track. Could be a podium with the floor upgrade which James Allison is trying to downplay...

George will be problem here unfortunately. And i don't mean for Lewis but for the team. He has a way of trying too hard on Hamilton tracks. I'm really afraid he will scupper the chances of a Mercedes podium.

IMO, George focuses far to much on trying to beat Lewis, while forgetting to stay out of trouble. By trouble I mean not crashing yourself or your teammate out, or running into them, or hindering them.

[aMessageToCharlie]

COTA is another Hamilton track. Could be a podium with the floor upgrade which James Allison is trying to downplay...

George will be problem here unfortunately. And i don't mean for Lewis but for the team. He has a way of trying too hard on Hamilton tracks. I'm really afraid he will scupper the chances of a Mercedes podium.

IMO, George focuses far to much on trying to beat Lewis, while forgetting to stay out of trouble. By trouble I mean not crashing yourself or your teammate out, or running into them, or hindering them.

You must be mixing something up there, as it was LH
- overtaking off track in Singapore, refusing to let his team mate back past, ruining both driver's stints
- pushing his team mate off track in Suzuka, not making the corner himself
- crashing into his team mate in Quatar, taking out both cars

[Mosin123]

It's much more efficient to just look at the average race pace than to be concerned with incidents. Hamilton is where Mercedes is, pace wise on average. They have been consistently near the front. Mercedes never had the lows of Aston and Mclaren. Russell is behind because of mistakes and one technical DNF but that does not reflect where the car was pace wise.

But average pace is a managing pace which isnt a true representation of a cars real pace. and LH is most known for his race pace, keeping to a good average time whilst managing every thing is his strongest attribute, so that directly penalises LH for being consistant, some thing that Norris, Oscar, Charles, Sainz, Perez, and so on lack. Only Max and Alonso is near /match / exceeds LH's consistancy. no other drivers on the grid are as consistant as those three. And GR is pretty consistant, but he gets matched and beaten by LH consistantly on race pace...

I have a dislike for median data driven charts and tables and comparisons, they are not a true reflecting of the performance of the car, as they fail to take alot into consideration.

[dans79]

You must be mixing something up there, as it was LH

no im talking about:
1) crashing himself out in singapore
2) crashing himself out in montreal
3) impeding his teammate in spain qualifying and then running into him on the strait a few seconds later.
4) blocking him in spa qualifying after he screwed up his lap.

[PlatinumZealot]

George will be problem here unfortunately. And i don't mean for Lewis but for the team. He has a way of trying too hard on Hamilton tracks. I'm really afraid he will scupper the chances of a Mercedes podium.

IMO, George focuses far to much on trying to beat Lewis, while forgetting to stay out of trouble. By trouble I mean not crashing yourself or your teammate out, or running into them, or hindering them.

You must be mixing something up there, as it was LH
- overtaking off track in Singapore, refusing to let his team mate back past, ruining both driver's stints
- pushing his team mate off track in Suzuka, not making the corner himself
- crashing into his team mate in Quatar, taking out both cars

Ok....

Singapore was George holding the hard end. Could have tucked in to lwt his teammate behind.

Suzuka was a cheeky George move that was duly nipped in the bud.

Quatari blamed Lewis but fuether reviews showed George had no chance of passing Max there and should have tucked in to allow Ham a go since he had momentum on the faster tyre.

So... No...

[Spoutnik]

Sainz DNF at Spa while his teamates cruised to 3rd (would've finished 5th at least) = 10 pts
Leclerc DNF in Barhain while being 3rd = 15 pts
Sainz took a restart penalty in Australia while being 4th, Leclerc DNF with lap one incident we could argue he would've finished 6th (I'm conservative) = 12 pts for Sainz, 8 pts for Leclerc
Leclerc DNF with lap one damage in Zandvoort while Sainz finished 5th = 10 pts
Sainz DNS for fuel leak in Qatar while his teamate finished 5th, and he finished ahead of him in Sprint race, Sainz would've finished 6th let's say = 8 pts.
It's ~30 pts lost for Sainz & ~ +30 for Leclerc

As for Russell, given how close Alonso was to Hamilton I don't think he would've been able to keep them behind.
Canada... Hamilton and Alonso were clearly faster than him. And given that both Ferrari who went out on Q2 finished 4 sec behind Hamilton given their tremendous race pace on this track I don't think he would've even finished 5th.
Zandvoorst is "just" a strategic mistake from Merc, as the Silverstone mess was for Ferrari but I'm not counting it.
Singapore I agree, but we also have to keep in mind Leclerc race was compromised

I'm not counting Ferrari mistakes (slow pit stop, strategic blunder). They should be ahead in the WCC & WDC imo

There you go. Ferrari dropping around 30pts each, Russell more like 50. He should be ahead of both of them in the WDC but he has made too many mistakes. Hamilton to his credit has not made as many mistakes, but the car is the second fastest across this season so it's no wonder he is 3rd.

I've just try to show the opposite...