2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[AR3-GP]

As per F1- insider Christian Horner apparently wanted Bradley Lord (Mercedes' PR Officer) to replace Franz Tost at AlphaTauri

Interesting...

[PlatinumZealot]

But GR didnt finish 3rd in Singapore, LH did, and only team orders kept him in front of LH till he hit the wall, But charles lost 3 places under the Safety car double stacking, so he should have finished 2nd, which puts both Mercs out of the podium places.... Unless we cherry picking which events / mistakes / penaltys and so on we are counting like.... so if GR was supposed to finish 5 th taking out mistakes / penatlys / walls / team orders. then he doesnt lose " that many points " from his close encounter with the wall, and both Ferraris finish in front.....

The entire point of the thought experiment is to eliminate driver errors to better isolate the speed of the car. The Merc was yet again faster than the Ferrari in Singapore, for the same reason it has been faster all season, better tyre wear. And your theory about team orders is made up, it's Singapore, good luck passing the same car on the same tyres.

Yes and being faster on a street circuit is useless as Sainz started on pole and George lost out to Leclerc at the start, so what's the point. We can't even now if Norris was faster as he wasn't in clear air.
Still the only race were Merc were clear cut 2nd fastest was Spain, other than that (???) while Ferrari was very often 2nd fastest.

GR63's race pace was inferior in singapore.

[PlatinumZealot]

You must be mixing something up there, as it was LH
- overtaking off track in Singapore, refusing to let his team mate back past, ruining both driver's stints
- pushing his team mate off track in Suzuka, not making the corner himself
- crashing into his team mate in Quatar, taking out both cars

Ok....

Singapore was George holding the hard end. Could have tucked in to lwt his teammate behind.

Suzuka was a cheeky George move that was duly nipped in the bud.

Quatari blamed Lewis but fuether reviews showed George had no chance of passing Max there and should have tucked in to allow Ham a go since he had momentum on the faster tyre.

So... No...

lol, sure bud. You guys must be watching a different season, but I don't want to further interrupt the LH fandom. Carry on...

Yes. Let us speak about our team matters in peace. The "not Lewis" team threads are plenty enough out there but I can't blame you for gravitating towards the Mercedes thread. I see you looming in the distance then coming into close perspective when certain names are mentioned!!

[ringo]

Where would the likes of AMR and MCL be without a RB to copy? Almost all (if not all) the teams have made changes inspired by the Red Bull.

Without Max, I wonder if Merc would still have committed to replacing zero pod, I think they wouldn't have.

They would have replaced it. Zero pod car was fighting to get into Q3. I do not buy that without redbull Mercedes would be satisfied. The cars have been weak and susceptible to being beat by the likes of Williams and Alpine on occasions.

[ringo]

A good video series by the team. Makes figuring out how to get an F-1 job less mysterious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQmHhtAIw_g

This guy goes through what he does, also gives some insight into the bouncing problems of 2022. The team seems to be investing in youth and a broad selection of people. A good mix of young people and notably more females in technical roles. Could bode well for the future.

As for the new floor. I kinda wish to see a revitalized W14, just like how the MCL got fast overnight once the upgrades went on. The car can be worth half a second if it means driver confidence and drag reduction brings half a tenth in each corner and on the straights.

[denyall]

Where would the likes of AMR and MCL be without a RB to copy? Almost all (if not all) the teams have made changes inspired by the Red Bull.

Without Max, I wonder if Merc would still have committed to replacing zero pod, I think they wouldn't have.

They would have replaced it. Zero pod car was fighting to get into Q3. I do not buy that without redbull Mercedes would be satisfied. The cars have been weak and susceptible to being beat by the likes of Williams and Alpine on occasions.

Mixed my scenarios up a little...

Without Max but with any other driver in the RB a don't see much changing in 22' or 23' except maybe more variability in who wins in the RB.

Without RB, Ferrari would have been double world champion in 22' and Merc would be much closer in second that they were in third. With their choice to stick with zero pod for the beginning of 23', Ferrari's loss of form, and no RB for Aston to copy I do think that Merc wouldn't have done a mid season change as it wouldn't have been as obvious that they were behind the curve as when RB shows up with +1 sec and Aston goes from 7th to 2nd with the same engine and transmission.. I think the Merc pride would have been tougher to overcome in a more compressed field of cars.

[AR3-GP]

Where would the likes of AMR and MCL be without a RB to copy? Almost all (if not all) the teams have made changes inspired by the Red Bull.

Without Max, I wonder if Merc would still have committed to replacing zero pod, I think they wouldn't have.

They would have replaced it. Zero pod car was fighting to get into Q3. I do not buy that without redbull Mercedes would be satisfied. The cars have been weak and susceptible to being beat by the likes of Williams and Alpine on occasions.

I'm not sure they would have. It's really only the gap to RB that shattered them in Bahrain. If RB didn't exist, they would have continued and the W14 would just be a diva car like the W09/W10. It wouldn't make sense to throw away the concept when it's fighting for wins without RB in the grid.

[Spoutnik]

The entire point of the thought experiment is to eliminate driver errors to better isolate the speed of the car. The Merc was yet again faster than the Ferrari in Singapore, for the same reason it has been faster all season, better tyre wear. And your theory about team orders is made up, it's Singapore, good luck passing the same car on the same tyres.

Yes and being faster on a street circuit is useless as Sainz started on pole and George lost out to Leclerc at the start, so what's the point. We can't even now if Norris was faster as he wasn't in clear air.
Still the only race were Merc were clear cut 2nd fastest was Spain, other than that (???) while Ferrari was very often 2nd fastest.

GR63's race pace was inferior in singapore.

Yes I agree with you, but it's already to make them accept some easier some assomption so Im just saying even wasnt faster/we can't know in fact I Think Norris & Charles without his issue were faster in clear air. Fortunately for Merc George was so good at overtaking !

Probably, Hamilton was faster than him (not only on the last stint) but we will never know

[ringo]

Where would the likes of AMR and MCL be without a RB to copy? Almost all (if not all) the teams have made changes inspired by the Red Bull.

Without Max, I wonder if Merc would still have committed to replacing zero pod, I think they wouldn't have.

They would have replaced it. Zero pod car was fighting to get into Q3. I do not buy that without redbull Mercedes would be satisfied. The cars have been weak and susceptible to being beat by the likes of Williams and Alpine on occasions.

I'm not sure they would have. It's really only the gap to RB that shattered them in Bahrain. If RB didn't exist, they would have continued and the W14 would just be a diva car like the W09/W10. It wouldn't make sense to throw away the concept when it's fighting for wins without RB in the grid.

You are assuming that Ferrari and Mclaren would stand still. Remember Ferrari started the year 2022 very strongly. Charles almost looked like he was on his way to be crowned champion until redbull sorted out their setup and reliability.
Mercedes still would have known their car had issues compared to Ferrari. Ferrari would not bother to turn the 2023 car in a low drag, high speed design as there would be no redbull to combat with on the straights. The Ferrari would keep their very strong characteristics and not be threatened at all by Mercedes which is slow. So there are a lot of permutations, but I still see Merc changing their car. Lewis would also feel uncomfortable in it if Russel was doing well and it would change again.

[cplchanb]

Where would the likes of AMR and MCL be without a RB to copy? Almost all (if not all) the teams have made changes inspired by the Red Bull.

Without Max, I wonder if Merc would still have committed to replacing zero pod, I think they wouldn't have.

They would have replaced it. Zero pod car was fighting to get into Q3. I do not buy that without redbull Mercedes would be satisfied. The cars have been weak and susceptible to being beat by the likes of Williams and Alpine on occasions.

I'm not sure they would have. It's really only the gap to RB that shattered them in Bahrain. If RB didn't exist, they would have continued and the W14 would just be a diva car like the W09/W10. It wouldn't make sense to throw away the concept when it's fighting for wins without RB in the grid.

youre referring to the W08/09?

the W10 got straight 1-2s until Monaco and probably wouldve gotten that too had Max not slammed into Bottas during the pitstops.

[Luscion]

Merc running high downforce wing for COTA

[Cs98]

Right so this thought experiment eliminates all GR errors, but not those of every one else?

So the entire point of the thought experiment is to cross out GR's mistakes to put him 3rd, but not forgetting all the others of every one else. OK got you, So Sainz who finished 1st, and started 1st was slower than the cars he finished in front of? Merc only got close to 2nd and first because they pitted for fresh faster tyres at the end after a safety car ( Caused by a mistake no? ) and Charles only lost 2nd because he got caught in his teams mistake and caused him to have a long pit stop because of a safety car ( Again caused by a mistake ) so in all this eliminating mistakes we are counting every single one, but GR hitting the wall???

Talk about selectively apply mistakes to suit ones agenda.

Nope, nothing selective about it. We eliminate the DNFs for everyone in the comparison. Russell has simply lost more points from unreliability and major individual mistakes. Things that shouldn't detract from the quality of the car, and it doesn't. It's been the second fastest car overall.

So Sainz who finished 1st, and started 1st was slower than the cars he finished in front of?

Yes, I've said it ad nauseum, the Ferrari has bad deg.. Russell clearly had more pace when he was behind Sainz. F1 races don't always finish in order of race pace, this is basic stuff. Many street circuits are about track position.

[AR3-GP]

So Sainz who finished 1st, and started 1st was slower than the cars he finished in front of?

Yes. Russell clearly had more pace when he was behind Sainz. F1 races don't always finish in order of race pace, this is basic stuff. Street circuits are all about track position.

I disagree that Russell had more pace than Sainz in Singapore, but that doesn't detract from the general argument which I agree with that Merc's car has been more consistent than Mclaren/Ferrari/Aston over the season, despite each of those teams being quicker at various parts of the season. Those other teams had higher highs, but also had lower lows.

[Cs98]

So Sainz who finished 1st, and started 1st was slower than the cars he finished in front of?

Yes. Russell clearly had more pace when he was behind Sainz. F1 races don't always finish in order of race pace, this is basic stuff. Street circuits are all about track position.

I disagree that Russell had more pace than Sainz in Singapore, but that doesn't detract from the general argument which I agree with that Merc's car has been more consistent than Mclaren/Ferrari/Aston over the season, despite each of those teams being quicker at a specific GP circuit.

Raw pace was close, as we saw in quali. But the Ferrari is always harder on the tyres which means the advantage shifts in the race. But with Singapore as it is Sainz can just dictate the slow pace from the front and there is no way of getting past.

[ringo]

One cannot look back on pace charts to understand the pace in that race. Sainz was racing as slow as possible to control pit stop strategy, via gap behind the leaders, and tyre wear. The ferrari could have gone much faster. They also failed to pit during the SC when Merc went in for fresh tyres. IMO, there was no way to decipher pace.