Track limits ideas

[FW17]

Then

[KeiKo403]

I spent a couple of minutes thinking about track limits.

Should the FIA incorporate sensors in the cars? Or should it be on the circuits? Cars seem easier vs the entire length of track white lines, inside and outside.

Got me thinking about lane departure systems on most road cars these days, the technology already exists to some degree.

I was also wondering if anything could be done with reflective coatings (not chrome like they’re all ballers!) on the wheel covers and systems track side to measure distance between the sensor and the outside of the wheels, technically the widest part of the cars, ping if distance exceeds x.

[Andres125sx]

Just make the curbs thinner. Why can an entire car be on the curb when its almost 2m wide? Have a 1m curb and then a strip of grass beyond the track before the tarmac runoff starts.

Indeed. Maybe grass could be replaced with slippery paint, similar to parkings, just to avoid any step between curb-grass and grass-asphalt (if there´s asphalt again before the barriers)

Safety for non F1 and non racing category events

Safety is a concern in Silverstone, Spa, Montmelo or any other track with grass next to the track? Grass exist on most tracks on the calendar, at least at some corners

Rodak said track limits are only a concern at some specific tracks, I agree, but to be more precise we should talk about specific corners better than tracks. Any track have some corner wich may be problematic, and some wich don´t so, it should be as easy as looking at those corners

You can be sure at any of these corners there´s no need for any camera, drone or sensor to enforce track limits, and safety has never been a huge problem

Silverstone:


Montmelo:


Spa:


Spielberg:


Monza:



But I must agree gravel and grass might be a problem safety wise, that´s the reason I´d replace them with tarmac/concrete, with a very slippery paint for at least 2m wide, then tarmac again.

This way anyone going off track will slide and/or lose time (can´t take advantage of going off track with a wider line), but when someone lose control and spin out of the track, once the car pass this 2m slippery band there´s tarmac again, and there will be grip again to slow down, stop or rejoin the track.

I think this would solve all problems of each system:

- Better than grass, wich is a problem because of minimal grip, and sliding with barely any deceleration before crashing with the barriers
- Better than gravel, as cars can dig into it and turn over
- Better than a wall for obvious reasons
- Better than all asphalt, wich means stewarts will have to check cameras after each Q sesion and change results after the checkered flag, or relying and implementing a new system at all corners

It will also be very easy to implement, as most new track are asphalt all around (that´s the reason for this new problem), so it´s as easy as painting a 2m band. No need for new tech, no need to make holes for sensors, no need for any stewart, no need to change the track at all.

[SiLo]

I'd still have grass because it makes the track look so much better. Plenty of tracks have grass, or even gravel. I always thought bikers preferred gravel as it slows them down a lot faster. A lot of contention comes because gravel traps are harder to maintain, and tracks don't like using them because track days mean there would be frequent stoppages to remove cars from them. More and more tracks are relying on that kind of income to stay open.

A 2m strip of grass before tarmac would fix both of these issues. Otherwise just drive around a parking lot. At some point we need to realise we are at the point of diminishing returns for driver safety when on track before we talk about the vehicle.

[DDopey]

Like I said before, instead of a slippery part, make it textured. Not that much that it is abbrasive (or maybe a bit), but enough for drivers to notice. The effect will be that drivers will stay between the track limits much more.

[rscsr]

Like I said before, instead of a slippery part, make it textured. Not that much that it is abbrasive (or maybe a bit), but enough for drivers to notice. The effect will be that drivers will stay between the track limits much more.

Are curbs not textured enough already? Or am I misunderstanding your point?

[mrsweet]

The answer is literally in the name. The curbs are no longer curbing and need to be redesigned. If its faster to run over the curbs, then they aren't designed properly. For safety reasons they have a requirement to not make the driver lose control of the car but need to increase the penalty for crossing them. I'd argue the last race was a tangential step in the right direction. The damage done to the tyre should be on the traction surface instead of the sidewall, if damage to the tyre is a goal. I'd be ok with drivers being penalized with premature tyre wear for going too far outside. The other real option is to create a resonating bounce that doesn't cause serious crashes or too many red flags. Perhaps invert the profile of the current curbs.

Actively monitoring and punishing is a piss poor solution.

[DDopey]

Like I said before, instead of a slippery part, make it textured. Not that much that it is abbrasive (or maybe a bit), but enough for drivers to notice. The effect will be that drivers will stay between the track limits much more.

Are curbs not textured enough already? Or am I misunderstanding your point?

Well that was the problem in Qatar, they weren't . So the drivers could not clearly see or feel the track limits (at least, that was their feedback).

[Zynerji]

My track limits suggestion:

A transponder in the front and rear crash structure, closest to the monocoque. Then, a 2mm groove is cut in the kerb at the defined limit for a transponder wire. If both front and rear sensors on the car trigger by going over the wire, the system then cuts the power to the MGUK for 3 seconds.

Cheap, easy to implement, targetable at any track, purely objective and easily tested for compliance.

[DDopey]

I think this topic is discussing two things, prevention and detection. The problems with detection came from the abundance of track limit violations, now it would be possible to find a technology solution of that. This might be a good thing even if they are capable of reducing the amount of track limit violations. But prevention should be the first step and solutions for that will always allow for better racing.

[gazza42000]

I think this topic is discussing two things, prevention and detection. The problems with detection came from the abundance of track limit violations, now it would be possible to find a technology solution of that. This might be a good thing even if they are capable of reducing the amount of track limit violations. But prevention should be the first step and solutions for that will always allow for better racing.

Totally agree! - take away the temptation (acres of tarmac runoff), put grass/gravel/sand or whatever there instead - don't really care what - just as long as it means going outside the line results in an instant and unavoidable increase in lap time. Any 'technical' solution is bound to fail at some point or you'll get continuing arguments about mm of exceeding the limits (coz sensors aren't perfect and always have an error margin)

[Martin Keene]

Zandavort have the right idea, they have installed a 1m strip of resin bonded pea gravel just behind the kerb. Offers zero grip so there is no point in using it, but equally, cannot be dragged back on to the circuit creating an issue for others.

[michl420]

Many here pointing to technical solutions (modern world?). I prefer a slippery surface (astro turf, gravel, wood, gras, whatever) just behind the curb. The driver feel it, the viewers see it, the punishment is immediatly. For safety reasons maybe only 1 or 2 meters, fine by me. Cost? For F1 standarts not that high (For Qatar it obviously doesn`t matter). Also a very cheap solution would be a bale of straw. Sounds crazy but only until you think about it.

[gazza42000]

My problem with technical solutions is that they do not punish exceeding track limits - adding 5 secs to the elapsed time is not a punishment if you can recover more than that 5 seconds by cutting the corner - because that is effectively what they are doing. Remove the kerbs and the runoffs and the track becomes self policing, and it really doesn't bother me if a driver ends up axle deep in sand/gravel or whatever if they do go off. For years drivers have been pushing track limits to the limit - and tarmac runoffs just make it worse, get rid of them all.

[mzivtins]

Tracks already implement automatic track sensors in many different ways, the technology has been around for years and is used extensively in other groups of FIA racing.

This issue with track limits has never been about seeing when a car dis-respects those limits, it is the human review that is needed.

You cannot automatically rely on a system, it should only ever notify of a track limit infringement.

• If you are pushed wide, you should not get a penalty.
  If you run deep and lose lots of time, you should not get a penalty.

This is the issue because the f1 racing control are incompetent when compared to other formulas. Track limits are policed at every corner at spa for 50+ cars during a 24hour race, and it is never a problem. They just get it done.

But that is what happens when you have a proper racing control team who are the same at every event without nonsense guest weekend invites.

Do what they do everywhere else: Just apply the rules and race at tracks where the run off would hurt the car.

In extreme cases the race director should implement bollards to allow the safe use of braking track limits, whereby cars are permitted to run wide as much as they like, but they most come back onto the track before the demarcation bollards.

Here is the example down at Turn 10 (Clip start about 15second before):