2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[PlatinumZealot]

The car sucks and is way below the standard that Mercedes needs to be at. Russell or Hamiton doesn't matter. W14 bad RB19 good.

[Mosin123]

Right so this thought experiment eliminates all GR errors, but not those of every one else?

So the entire point of the thought experiment is to cross out GR's mistakes to put him 3rd, but not forgetting all the others of every one else. OK got you, So Sainz who finished 1st, and started 1st was slower than the cars he finished in front of? Merc only got close to 2nd and first because they pitted for fresh faster tyres at the end after a safety car ( Caused by a mistake no? ) and Charles only lost 2nd because he got caught in his teams mistake and caused him to have a long pit stop because of a safety car ( Again caused by a mistake ) so in all this eliminating mistakes we are counting every single one, but GR hitting the wall???

Talk about selectively apply mistakes to suit ones agenda.

Nope, nothing selective about it. We eliminate the DNFs for everyone in the comparison. Russell has simply lost more points from unreliability and major individual mistakes. Things that shouldn't detract from the quality of the car, and it doesn't. It's been the second fastest car overall.

So Sainz who finished 1st, and started 1st was slower than the cars he finished in front of?

Yes, I've said it ad nauseum, the Ferrari has bad deg.. Russell clearly had more pace when he was behind Sainz. F1 races don't always finish in order of race pace, this is basic stuff. Many street circuits are about track position.

Right, so now we have gone from errors, to DNF's.

Sainz had more than enough " Pace " as can be seen from the lap times during the race, and the fact he stuck it on pole.

His tyre saving during the race, is testiment to the old saying " you win going as slow as possible " doesnt mean he doesnt have any extra pace. He said he had 1 sec extra in hand, and GR him self said later he thinks Sainz had 2 extra secs in hand....GR spent the whole race behind Sainz.

[Cs98]

Right so this thought experiment eliminates all GR errors, but not those of every one else?

So the entire point of the thought experiment is to cross out GR's mistakes to put him 3rd, but not forgetting all the others of every one else. OK got you, So Sainz who finished 1st, and started 1st was slower than the cars he finished in front of? Merc only got close to 2nd and first because they pitted for fresh faster tyres at the end after a safety car ( Caused by a mistake no? ) and Charles only lost 2nd because he got caught in his teams mistake and caused him to have a long pit stop because of a safety car ( Again caused by a mistake ) so in all this eliminating mistakes we are counting every single one, but GR hitting the wall???

Talk about selectively apply mistakes to suit ones agenda.

Nope, nothing selective about it. We eliminate the DNFs for everyone in the comparison. Russell has simply lost more points from unreliability and major individual mistakes. Things that shouldn't detract from the quality of the car, and it doesn't. It's been the second fastest car overall.

So Sainz who finished 1st, and started 1st was slower than the cars he finished in front of?

Yes, I've said it ad nauseum, the Ferrari has bad deg.. Russell clearly had more pace when he was behind Sainz. F1 races don't always finish in order of race pace, this is basic stuff. Many street circuits are about track position.

Right, so now we have gone from errors, to DNF's.

Sainz had more than enough " Pace " as can be seen from the lap times during the race, and the fact he stuck it on pole.

His tyre saving during the race, is testiment to the old saying " you win going as slow as possible " doesnt mean he doesnt have any extra pace. He said he had 1 sec extra in hand, and GR him self said later he thinks Sainz had 2 extra secs in hand....GR spent the whole race behind Sainz.

Nope. I outlined all the races I was counting early on and it was all of the races where there was a DNF. Australia (no error), Canada, Zandvoort, Singp. It's there for you to read.

I've already said the raw pace of the Ferrari is similar to Merc, as it was in Sngp quali (see times). But the Merc has much better tyre deg.

[djones]

The car actually looks ok so far. Maybe not the second fastest, but certainly the second best in terms of smoothness over bumps etc.

Might have just got lucky with an initial setup.

[cplchanb]

The car actually looks ok so far. Maybe not the second fastest, but certainly the second best in terms of smoothness over bumps etc.

Might have just got lucky with an initial setup.

well after fp1 ham is p3 under .3s. he probably couldve top the sheets as well if it wasnt for traffic in S3.

[Mosin123]

Nope, nothing selective about it. We eliminate the DNFs for everyone in the comparison. Russell has simply lost more points from unreliability and major individual mistakes. Things that shouldn't detract from the quality of the car, and it doesn't. It's been the second fastest car overall.

Yes, I've said it ad nauseum, the Ferrari has bad deg.. Russell clearly had more pace when he was behind Sainz. F1 races don't always finish in order of race pace, this is basic stuff. Many street circuits are about track position.

Right, so now we have gone from errors, to DNF's.

Sainz had more than enough " Pace " as can be seen from the lap times during the race, and the fact he stuck it on pole.

His tyre saving during the race, is testiment to the old saying " you win going as slow as possible " doesnt mean he doesnt have any extra pace. He said he had 1 sec extra in hand, and GR him self said later he thinks Sainz had 2 extra secs in hand....GR spent the whole race behind Sainz.

Nope. I outlined all the races I was counting early on and it was all of the races where there was a DNF. Australia (no error), Canada, Zandvoort, Singp. It's there for you to read.

I've already said the raw pace of the Ferrari is similar to Merc, as it was in Sngp quali (see times). But the Merc has much better tyre deg.

So we have gone from and ill quote
[/quote]
The entire point of the thought experiment is to eliminate driver errors to better isolate the speed of the car. The Merc was yet again faster than the Ferrari in Singapore, for the same reason it has been faster all season, better tyre wear. And your theory about team orders is made up, it's Singapore, good luck passing the same car on the same tyres.
[/quote]

Talking about Singapore, as you said here in your and ill quote " thought experiment to eliminate driver eorrors to better isolate the speed of the car, the Merc was yet again faster than Ferrari at Singapore " To now being about and ill quote " Australia (no error), Canada, Zandvoort, Singp. "

Didnt nearlly half the grid not finish at Austrlia? Didnt Sainz finish last place in 13th? yet we had no errors at Austrlia that lead to 0 DNF yet only 13 finished in a 3 red flagged race?.

We have gone from errors in 1 race, to DNF in 1 race, to now 4 races, with out even a single error at the Austrlian GP

These constant moving targets.......

So at every race Merc finished a head, they finished a head because they was faster than Ferrari, and have better tyre wear, every race Ferrari have finished a head of, Merc have still been the faster car. LH should be 2nd in the championship, Merc should defo finished 2nd in the constructors, and Ferrari havent made any mistakes all season........

That is me finished, this is obviously going no where. i mean no mistakes at Austrlia in which only 13 cars finished..... That was enough for me right there. ill just agree, McLaren is 5th fastest ( Still ) Merc is the closet to Redbull, And every race Ferrari finished on the podium / infront of Merc was just Charles / Sainz getting that extra out of the car, and when Merc finished a head its because Ferrari was flawless, and Merc was the faster car any way. Norris and Oscar stand up, you guys with the 5th fastest car on the grid, have managed 2 consecutive double podiums with a total of 7 with the 5th fastest car. Alonso with 7 podiums stand up too, with the 4th fastest car, you sir. Have performed as good as Norris and Oscar, all those podiums while your partner sits in 16th........ we know Strolls pace is the real pace of that AM and you just drag all that extra out of it... Bravo.

Merc are 2nd Because LH has been the most consistant driver on the grid apart from Max.

[AR3-GP]

Hamilton looks quite good here.

[ringo]

Yes this exercise has gone off on a tangent.
The Mercedes is not the 2nd fastest car however. I think a simpler approach is looking at the potential of the car to have a compromise between qualifying and race that results in a pace better than its rivals; ignoring strategy and errors.
If we look at the pace over a season, I think we have to wait until it has concluded to judge the average pace relatively to each car. But my basic opinion is the Ferrari is the second fastest and Mclaren and Mercedes about the same up to this point. If Mclaren continues to get podiums to the end of the season, it could be considered the second fastest car.

But to get back to current events.. I did not see the US GP first practice, but the results seems positive. Any feedback from the new floor from the drivers or team?

[chrisc90]

Yes this exercise has gone off on a tangent.
The Mercedes is not the 2nd fastest car however. I think a simpler approach is looking at the potential of the car to have a compromise between qualifying and race that results in a pace better than its rivals; ignoring strategy and errors.
If we look at the pace over a season, I think we have to wait until it has concluded to judge the average pace relatively to each car. But my basic opinion is the Ferrari is the second fastest and Mclaren and Mercedes about the same up to this point. If Mclaren continues to get podiums to the end of the season, it could be considered the second fastest car.

But to get back to current events.. I did not see the US GP first practice, but the results seems positive. Any feedback from the new floor from the drivers or team?

McLaren have mode podiums than merc (7 total driver appearances for McLaren vs 7 for Mercedes) over the last 8 races than what Mercedes has over a whole season.
If you look at Silverstone onwards its 7 to McLaren and 2 to Mercedes.

At this moment, it will be safe to assume that the McLaren is the 2nd fastest car on the grid after their major upgrade they brought. Over a season, you have to say Mercedes are 2nd best, going from the WDC position, but its a ever evolving season.

It will be interesting to see where the Merc upgrade bring them. Even last season their car was competitive in the Amercia's (COTA, Brazil, Mexico) which were high DF tracks. So I think it might be a little hard to evaluate the new floor over the next 3/4 races. So Dubai might be a good track to conclude any outcomings from the new floor.

Its probably a upgrade they brought 2/3 races too 'late' to compare against other tracks that arent high DF.

[AR3-GP]

Wolff said Mercedes has internally joked about the driver troubles kicking off while the boss was away, but he was clear there was no link.

“I don't think so,” he said, when asked by Autosport if his absence had been a factor. “We've laughed about that, too, in the team. But I don't think it has an effect.

“I think we are racing more in the front now, and I think we have a sniff on how it is looking like to have no car in front of you, with the McLarens and with Max [Verstappen] there.

“So, yeah, in any case, we'll never find out. I'm back.”

I think Toto's being humble

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/wolff ... 20accident.

[Cs98]

Talking about Singapore, as you said here in your and ill quote " thought experiment to eliminate driver eorrors to better isolate the speed of the car, the Merc was yet again faster than Ferrari at Singapore " To now being about and ill quote " Australia (no error), Canada, Zandvoort, Singp. "

Didnt nearlly half the grid not finish at Austrlia? Didnt Sainz finish last place in 13th? yet we had no errors at Austrlia that lead to 0 DNF yet only 13 finished in a 3 red flagged race?.

We have gone from errors in 1 race, to DNF in 1 race, to now 4 races, with out even a single error at the Austrlian GP

These constant moving targets.......

So at every race Merc finished a head, they finished a head because they was faster than Ferrari, and have better tyre wear, every race Ferrari have finished a head of, Merc have still been the faster car. LH should be 2nd in the championship, Merc should defo finished 2nd in the constructors, and Ferrari havent made any mistakes all season........

That is me finished, this is obviously going no where. i mean no mistakes at Austrlia in which only 13 cars finished..... That was enough for me right there. ill just agree, McLaren is 5th fastest ( Still ) Merc is the closet to Redbull, And every race Ferrari finished on the podium / infront of Merc was just Charles / Sainz getting that extra out of the car, and when Merc finished a head its because Ferrari was flawless, and Merc was the faster car any way. Norris and Oscar stand up, you guys with the 5th fastest car on the grid, have managed 2 consecutive double podiums with a total of 7 with the 5th fastest car. Alonso with 7 podiums stand up too, with the 4th fastest car, you sir. Have performed as good as Norris and Oscar, all those podiums while your partner sits in 16th........ we know Strolls pace is the real pace of that AM and you just drag all that extra out of it... Bravo.

Merc are 2nd Because LH has been the most consistant driver on the grid apart from Max.

This would've been so much less confusing if you actually read what I initially wrote and argued with that instead of all these straw men.

Let us do this excercise for real instead of adjusting one team and not the other.

So for Russell, in Australia he was on for P2, Canada top 4, Zandvoort top 8 minimum, Singapore top 3. That's like 50 points worth of retirements at least. You look at a guy like Leclerc who has also had 4 retirements, he has lost maybe 20-30 points from those based on pace and position. Taking driver mistakes and unreliability out of the equation would place Russell ahead of both Ferraris. The Merc is just better in the races, the Ferrari has too much deg. So I'm not shocked Lewis is P3, that is where he ought to be based on the pace of the car. Russell's costly mistakes are what have put him and the team in a position where it looks kinda close with Ferrari.

The argument hasn't changed one bit, you just didn't read it. The Singapore pace discussion only came up as a tangent.

[Mosin123]

Talking about Singapore, as you said here in your and ill quote " thought experiment to eliminate driver eorrors to better isolate the speed of the car, the Merc was yet again faster than Ferrari at Singapore " To now being about and ill quote " Australia (no error), Canada, Zandvoort, Singp. "

Didnt nearlly half the grid not finish at Austrlia? Didnt Sainz finish last place in 13th? yet we had no errors at Austrlia that lead to 0 DNF yet only 13 finished in a 3 red flagged race?.

We have gone from errors in 1 race, to DNF in 1 race, to now 4 races, with out even a single error at the Austrlian GP

These constant moving targets.......

So at every race Merc finished a head, they finished a head because they was faster than Ferrari, and have better tyre wear, every race Ferrari have finished a head of, Merc have still been the faster car. LH should be 2nd in the championship, Merc should defo finished 2nd in the constructors, and Ferrari havent made any mistakes all season........

That is me finished, this is obviously going no where. i mean no mistakes at Austrlia in which only 13 cars finished..... That was enough for me right there. ill just agree, McLaren is 5th fastest ( Still ) Merc is the closet to Redbull, And every race Ferrari finished on the podium / infront of Merc was just Charles / Sainz getting that extra out of the car, and when Merc finished a head its because Ferrari was flawless, and Merc was the faster car any way. Norris and Oscar stand up, you guys with the 5th fastest car on the grid, have managed 2 consecutive double podiums with a total of 7 with the 5th fastest car. Alonso with 7 podiums stand up too, with the 4th fastest car, you sir. Have performed as good as Norris and Oscar, all those podiums while your partner sits in 16th........ we know Strolls pace is the real pace of that AM and you just drag all that extra out of it... Bravo.

Merc are 2nd Because LH has been the most consistant driver on the grid apart from Max.

This would've been so much less confusing if you actually read what I initially wrote and argued with that instead of all these straw men.

Let us do this excercise for real instead of adjusting one team and not the other.

So for Russell, in Australia he was on for P2, Canada top 4, Zandvoort top 8 minimum, Singapore top 3. That's like 50 points worth of retirements at least. You look at a guy like Leclerc who has also had 4 retirements, he has lost maybe 20-30 points from those based on pace and position. Taking driver mistakes and unreliability out of the equation would place Russell ahead of both Ferraris. The Merc is just better in the races, the Ferrari has too much deg. So I'm not shocked Lewis is P3, that is where he ought to be based on the pace of the car. Russell's costly mistakes are what have put him and the team in a position where it looks kinda close with Ferrari.

The argument hasn't changed one bit, you just didn't read it. The Singapore pace discussion only came up as a tangent.

Again no its not straw man, your just being selective, Why you only count DNF and not mistakes? Or you expecting every body to believe that when Charles finished 11th at the spanish GP it was a flawless race and quali from Ferrari? like its natural for Ferrari to be starting 19th right, when Sainz started 2nd? ? And in Bahrain Sainz started and finished 4th right? So its only fair to assume thats the pace of the car and that if Charles had managed to finish he would have finished 3rd right? Or monaco....... in every single race, even Singapore, Ferrari have made atleast 2 mistakes which has cost them points to Merc, McLaren, And AM. So to only count DNF's because GR has screwed up all his races with mistakes that ended his race, but then not counting every mistake the rest of the grid has made, just because they wasnt lacking enough attention span to see walls, is bad comparison, and seem rather bad spirited.

[Luscion]

[mkay]

The car still has a very loose rear end. Either it's still an aerodynamic issue (not enough load at the rear) or the tyres were just gone by the end of the lap.

[K1Plus]

The car still has a very loose rear end. Either it's still an aerodynamic issue (not enough load at the rear) or the tyres were just gone by the end of the lap.

Probably rear suspension related. Red Bull has the best rear end.