2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[mwillems]

It also depends on how well Aston's new upgrades work, that might kill McLaren for the rest of the season, cause on paper, every track should suit RB, Merc and Ferrari more, bar Abu Dhabi maybe

I'm not sure that we are 4th fastest for the rest of the season at these tracks, but we will see.

AM were flattered in the race by breaking Parc ferme rules and setting up explicitly for the race having applied their learning from the weekend. It's a decent upgrade but I think we will still have the measure of them.

[MrGapes]

It also depends on how well Aston's new upgrades work, that might kill McLaren for the rest of the season, cause on paper, every track should suit RB, Merc and Ferrari more, bar Abu Dhabi maybe

I'm not sure that we are 4th fastest for the rest of the season at these tracks, but we will see.

AM were flattered in the race by breaking Parc ferme rules and setting up explicitly for the race having applied their learning from the weekend. It's a decent upgrade but I think we will still have the measure of them.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ollen-fia/

“Because ground effect cars are more dependent on the ride height than other concepts. Aston Martin provided the best example. They had chosen too much ground clearance and ended up in nowhere.

When this was corrected on race day and a start from the pit lane was accepted, the green cars appeared transformed. Fernando Alonso attacked Pierre Gasly after 48 of 56 laps. And he started seventh. Lance Stroll still ended up in the points.“

[mwillems]

It also depends on how well Aston's new upgrades work, that might kill McLaren for the rest of the season, cause on paper, every track should suit RB, Merc and Ferrari more, bar Abu Dhabi maybe

I'm not sure that we are 4th fastest for the rest of the season at these tracks, but we will see.

AM were flattered in the race by breaking Parc ferme rules and setting up explicitly for the race having applied their learning from the weekend. It's a decent upgrade but I think we will still have the measure of them.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ollen-fia/

“Because ground effect cars are more dependent on the ride height than other concepts. Aston Martin provided the best example. They had chosen too much ground clearance and ended up in nowhere.

When this was corrected on race day and a start from the pit lane was accepted, the green cars appeared transformed. Fernando Alonso attacked Pierre Gasly after 48 of 56 laps. And he started seventh. Lance Stroll still ended up in the points.“

Alonso ran the old spec car that had been setup specifically for the race, which backs my assertion I think. But Stroll was quicker than Alonso, and that in itself is a Red Flag But if you look at the bump that Alonso got from a race setup then you'd think that also would bump Stroll too, so I'm yet to be convinced they are a threat to us but it does look faster, of that there is no doubt.

I'm sure there will be elements of the setup on the new car being hard to tune in such a short period of time too which would have held them back, but I think overall the AM got a bump at Austin that they won't get at other races. As always, if I'm wrong, reply to this message in a few days time and rub it in my face

[mwillems]

Going back to our pace here at this circuit, whilst it is not apples for apples, we were the 4th fastest car here last year. Feels like Ferrari, Merc and Mclaren will be in a battle again.

[Dafnalina]

I was expecting Aston to be higher. The simulations have been pretty accurate so far.

[AR3-GP]

I was expecting Aston to be higher. The simulations have been pretty accurate so far.

With margins like this, it's going to come down to driver execution in qualifying.

[Harisudhan]

I was expecting Aston to be higher. The simulations have been pretty accurate so far.

Alfa and Alpha being only 0.6 slower than RB seems quite unrealistic

[AR3-GP]

I was expecting Aston to be higher. The simulations have been pretty accurate so far.

Alfa and Alpha being only 0.6 slower than RB seems quite unrealistic

Mexico is a very short lap. The only track shorter is Monaco. So it’s hard to have a big gap on such a short track.

[mwillems]

Considering I think Leclerc could've finished ahead of Norris if they had chosen not to attempt a 1-stop, a P2 result and points gained to Merc, Ferrari, and a place in wdc for Norris is exceptional. Bad luck with oscar.

The sprint weekend meant a suboptimal setup. And Ferrari/Merc were not necessarily legal, so the gaps shouldn't be looked at too closely

I think it does indicate that the car prefers smoother tracks however

I was just reading through and noticed this. Why do you think the car prefers smooth tracks? I know Austin was tough and you could argue we had the 2nd, 3rd or 4th fastest car depending on your perspective or bias, but Singapore we had the second fastest car on merit, Merc were only catching us due to race circumstances and fresh tyres. I thought the difference was that Singapore in the revised layout "only" had 5 slow speed corners compared to Austin's 7, which also put some slow speed corners together into a tricky sequence that exaggerated the weakness of the car.

[organic]

Considering I think Leclerc could've finished ahead of Norris if they had chosen not to attempt a 1-stop, a P2 result and points gained to Merc, Ferrari, and a place in wdc for Norris is exceptional. Bad luck with oscar.

The sprint weekend meant a suboptimal setup. And Ferrari/Merc were not necessarily legal, so the gaps shouldn't be looked at too closely

I think it does indicate that the car prefers smoother tracks however

I was just reading through and noticed this. Why do you think the car prefers smooth tracks? I know Austin was tough and you could argue we had the 2nd, 3rd or 4th fastest car depending on your perspective or bias, but Singapore we had the second fastest car on merit, Merc were only catching us due to race circumstances and fresh tyres. I thought the difference was that Singapore in the revised layout "only" had 5 slow speed corners compared to Austin's 7, which also put some slow speed corners together into a tricky sequence that exaggerated the weakness of the car.

Ferrari are particularly good at handling bumps. Have been the best at it all year. Whenever a track is bumpy they outperform their own expectations as others lose performance relative to them.

Mercedes designed the W14 around running quite high ride heights to avoid porpoising altogether. Like Ferrari they lose Less performance when the lower cars have to back off ride height

So the direct competition have cars that handle bumps well relative to the rest of the grid. So McLaren don't necessarily hand bumps "poorly" in general but when a track is bumpy it helps Ferrari/Merc more than them

Additionally I think it was a limiting factor for McLaren at Austin for a couple of reasons. One: in fp1 Norris' engineer was asking him to take different lines through specific sections - most likely to avoid certain bumps that they can see in the data unsettling the car. Stella also mentioned post-race that the bumps in the slow speed cost them a lot

"Braking into Turn 11 and then traction out of Turn 11 was the most problematic phase from a car performance point of view," he explained.

"It was no surprise, it is to do with bumps and with braking and traction in two very low-speed corners, where we said already that we know the car doesn't perform very well.

Oscar also ahead of USA

"Qatar was a very smooth track but also had a lot of fast corners and really no slow corners – which is good news for us. Here, I think the bumps won’t be our friend in particular. I mean it’s never anyone’s friend, but I think we might suffer a bit with that.

I think it's not surprising that the two cars (RB/McLaren) who are miles ahead in terms of medium/high speed performance and perform comparatively better at smooth tracks compared to other teams then struggle more at a bumpier track

[mwillems]

Considering I think Leclerc could've finished ahead of Norris if they had chosen not to attempt a 1-stop, a P2 result and points gained to Merc, Ferrari, and a place in wdc for Norris is exceptional. Bad luck with oscar.

The sprint weekend meant a suboptimal setup. And Ferrari/Merc were not necessarily legal, so the gaps shouldn't be looked at too closely

I think it does indicate that the car prefers smoother tracks however

I was just reading through and noticed this. Why do you think the car prefers smooth tracks? I know Austin was tough and you could argue we had the 2nd, 3rd or 4th fastest car depending on your perspective or bias, but Singapore we had the second fastest car on merit, Merc were only catching us due to race circumstances and fresh tyres. I thought the difference was that Singapore in the revised layout "only" had 5 slow speed corners compared to Austin's 7, which also put some slow speed corners together into a tricky sequence that exaggerated the weakness of the car.

Ferrari are particularly good at handling bumps. Have been the best at it all year. Whenever a track is bumpy they outperform their own expectations as others lose performance relative to them.

Mercedes designed the W14 around running quite high ride heights to avoid porpoising altogether. Like Ferrari they lose Less performance when the lower cars have to back off ride height

So the direct competition have cars that handle bumps well relative to the rest of the grid. So McLaren don't necessarily hand bumps "poorly" in general but when a track is bumpy it helps Ferrari/Merc more than them

Additionally I think it was a limiting factor for McLaren at Austin for a couple of reasons. One: in fp1 Norris' engineer was asking him to take different lines through specific sections - most likely to avoid certain bumps that they can see in the data unsettling the car. Stella also mentioned post-race that the bumps in the slow speed cost them a lot

"Braking into Turn 11 and then traction out of Turn 11 was the most problematic phase from a car performance point of view," he explained.

"It was no surprise, it is to do with bumps and with braking and traction in two very low-speed corners, where we said already that we know the car doesn't perform very well.

That's interesting, thanks. Yeah Turn 11 was a known before the race and we knew it was going to be awful, to which I'd attributed it down to the High Energy Braking zones which I'd noticed us struggle with at Monza and Spa. And Ferrari I get because they were special at Singapore, and I understand they run a slightly different softer suspension setup which will help with the track characteristics, but I never realised the Mclaren didn't like bumps per se... but I can understand that it doesn't like the bumps in the slow corners where we are already struggling to get the nose to do what we want without any additional headaches like bumps, turn 11 not having a profile where we can drive the V shape that helps us mitigate the issues either.

Thanks for the speedy answer!

Edit: Merc ride height is a murky one at this GP

[mwillems]

It's worth mentioning also, that whilst some think the car has poor low speed corner ability you have to bear in mind that this is relative to one or two other teams, because in reality it isn't so poor that the better traits don't make up for it. We will struggle more at Mexico I think, but I can't see us being worse than 4th fastest, and I can't see both Merc and Ferrari dropping us at those tracks either, in race or Qualy, although my gut tells me Merc are going to be number 2 here.

[organic]

Following on about the bump stuff. Duchessa who is essentially getting his info from Ferrari I expect has reported that McLaren gave up over a tenth per lap on the setup to ensure legality. Give that laptime back and things would be close again between McLaren and Merc in race trim

[MrGapes]

I was thinking maybe its better to take a engine penalty in Brazil rather...

- Its easier to overtake and follow compared to Mexico where you have constant overheating oil, brakes, pu etc.
- It is a sprint weekend... if they intend to take a completely new PU and get a 20 place grid drop, they might as well start from the pit lane with a improved setup.

[Ground Effect]