2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Vaexa]

Elliott was clearly a key component to the 8 consecutive world championships and therefore one of the most successful engineers in the sport, otherwise he simply never would've been promoted to the TD role. Has the last 2 years reflected in a stellar way on him? Nobody could argue it has I think.

But to ignore it or claim it's going to make things better I think is having your blinders on.. The loss of further key technical staff that has already been happening on some scale of late to Merc is a little worrying

Every senior technical figure in the sport drops the ball at some point. Newey penned the infamous MP4-18 and 2015 Red Bull. James Allison designed the 2014 and 2016 Ferraris.

Were either of these made to fall on the sword of the so-so cars they designed? No. If Elliott left of his own volition, I can't blame him; I'd be unhappy, too. If he was pushed out, though... that's a lot more concerning.

[CHT]

Elliott was clearly a key component to the 8 consecutive world championships and therefore one of the most successful engineers in the sport, otherwise he simply never would've been promoted to the TD role. Has the last 2 years reflected in a stellar way on him? Nobody could argue it has I think.

But to ignore it or claim it's going to make things better I think is having your blinders on.. The loss of further key technical staff that has already been happening on some scale of late to Merc is a little worrying

Such sudden departure of key engineering staff is never a good thing and it's often a telltale sign that something is not well within the team. Perhaps the motivation is at rock bottom right now, which is perhaps the reason why Merc has got one of the worst pit-stop performances this year.

Perhaps Toto is overly focused on LH and the 8th WDC and he has put too much pressure on the rest to perform a miracle to beat RBR.

[Mosin123]

Elliott was clearly a key component to the 8 consecutive world championships and therefore one of the most successful engineers in the sport, otherwise he simply never would've been promoted to the TD role. Has the last 2 years reflected in a stellar way on him? Nobody could argue it has I think.

But to ignore it or claim it's going to make things better I think is having your blinders on.. The loss of further key technical staff that has already been happening on some scale of late to Merc is a little worrying

Such sudden departure of key engineering staff is never a good thing and it's often a telltale sign that something is not well within the team. Perhaps the motivation is at rock bottom right now, which is perhaps the reason why Merc has got one of the worst pit-stop performances this year.

Perhaps Toto is overly focused on LH and the 8th WDC and he has put too much pressure on the rest to perform a miracle to beat RBR.

Wouldnt that be standard practise in f1? dont all of them compete to win? Ferrari, Merc, McLaren, And Redbull, they all want to win, wouldnt look good on ones resume, " i left Merc because they wanted to win and i wnted to lose" ?

I would say its more likely he was pushed out because he didt listen to the drivers feedback on the car for 2 years, which wasnt the case before hand when they was winning championships.

[Spoutnik]

Happy to not be the only one to say it.

[organic]

It's obvious - Russell has 1 podium this season

[Spoutnik]

And on most tracks the Ferrari is faster/more or less equal now (at least to the Merc in George hands)

[CHT]

Elliott was clearly a key component to the 8 consecutive world championships and therefore one of the most successful engineers in the sport, otherwise he simply never would've been promoted to the TD role. Has the last 2 years reflected in a stellar way on him? Nobody could argue it has I think.

But to ignore it or claim it's going to make things better I think is having your blinders on.. The loss of further key technical staff that has already been happening on some scale of late to Merc is a little worrying

Such sudden departure of key engineering staff is never a good thing and it's often a telltale sign that something is not well within the team. Perhaps the motivation is at rock bottom right now, which is perhaps the reason why Merc has got one of the worst pit-stop performances this year.

Perhaps Toto is overly focused on LH and the 8th WDC and he has put too much pressure on the rest to perform a miracle to beat RBR.

Wouldnt that be standard practise in f1? dont all of them compete to win? Ferrari, Merc, McLaren, And Redbull, they all want to win, wouldnt look good on ones resume, " i left Merc because they wanted to win and i wnted to lose" ?

I would say its more likely he was pushed out because he didt listen to the drivers feedback on the car for 2 years, which wasnt the case before hand when they was winning championships.

After 8 consecutive of WCC to fire the technical team just because of drivers feedback is not good for morale of the people working at the factory.

Hope this decision doesn't back fire because James Allison is no superman he has his fair share dry spell without winning any championship

[mendis]

Elliott was clearly a key component to the 8 consecutive world championships and therefore one of the most successful engineers in the sport, otherwise he simply never would've been promoted to the TD role. Has the last 2 years reflected in a stellar way on him? Nobody could argue it has I think.

But to ignore it or claim it's going to make things better I think is having your blinders on.. The loss of further key technical staff that has already been happening on some scale of late to Merc is a little worrying

Such sudden departure of key engineering staff is never a good thing and it's often a telltale sign that something is not well within the team. Perhaps the motivation is at rock bottom right now, which is perhaps the reason why Merc has got one of the worst pit-stop performances this year.

Perhaps Toto is overly focused on LH and the 8th WDC and he has put too much pressure on the rest to perform a miracle to beat RBR.

Wouldnt that be standard practise in f1? dont all of them compete to win? Ferrari, Merc, McLaren, And Redbull, they all want to win, wouldnt look good on ones resume, " i left Merc because they wanted to win and i wnted to lose" ?

I would say its more likely he was pushed out because he didt listen to the drivers feedback on the car for 2 years, which wasnt the case before hand when they was winning championships.

It doesn't matter if a technical director or CTO listens to drivers or not. If the car isn't faster, some head has to roll or move aside. In this case, it's Mike. He was the chief aerodynamicist and technology director when the same driver won 6 championships and Mercedes winning 8 constructors. Not listening to driver feedback is a moot point. Lack of results is.

I am sure we will see Allison booted out in near future if the results doesn't come next year even if he listened to the drivers.

[Spoutnik]

Happy to not be the only one to say it.

when Max is leading..its Perez that is slow..or Max doesn't have a strong teammate.

Russell, for many reasons, was rated higher than Perez, or let's say people had more expectations from him.

But the tweet has no link with Max ?

[Mosin123]

Such sudden departure of key engineering staff is never a good thing and it's often a telltale sign that something is not well within the team. Perhaps the motivation is at rock bottom right now, which is perhaps the reason why Merc has got one of the worst pit-stop performances this year.

Perhaps Toto is overly focused on LH and the 8th WDC and he has put too much pressure on the rest to perform a miracle to beat RBR.

Wouldnt that be standard practise in f1? dont all of them compete to win? Ferrari, Merc, McLaren, And Redbull, they all want to win, wouldnt look good on ones resume, " i left Merc because they wanted to win and i wnted to lose" ?

I would say its more likely he was pushed out because he didt listen to the drivers feedback on the car for 2 years, which wasnt the case before hand when they was winning championships.

After 8 consecutive of WCC to fire the technical team just because of drivers feedback is not good for morale of the people working at the factory.

Hope this decision doesn't back fire because James Allison is no superman he has his fair share dry spell without winning any championship

But he wasnt TD for all those titles, Most he was head aero, then moved to TD in 2017 in a joint role with Allison after Lowe left, Before then, Lowe was the leader on design, Not ME.

Do you not find it funny how after LH and GR complain that they wasnt being listened to with the car design and all of a sudden Allison is back?

Ofc its important, if they cant drive the car, then the car is no good.

[Mosin123]

Such sudden departure of key engineering staff is never a good thing and it's often a telltale sign that something is not well within the team. Perhaps the motivation is at rock bottom right now, which is perhaps the reason why Merc has got one of the worst pit-stop performances this year.

Perhaps Toto is overly focused on LH and the 8th WDC and he has put too much pressure on the rest to perform a miracle to beat RBR.

Wouldnt that be standard practise in f1? dont all of them compete to win? Ferrari, Merc, McLaren, And Redbull, they all want to win, wouldnt look good on ones resume, " i left Merc because they wanted to win and i wnted to lose" ?

I would say its more likely he was pushed out because he didt listen to the drivers feedback on the car for 2 years, which wasnt the case before hand when they was winning championships.

It doesn't matter if a technical director or CTO listens to drivers or not. If the car isn't faster, some head has to roll or move aside. In this case, it's Mike. He was the chief aerodynamicist and technology director when the same driver won 6 championships and Mercedes winning 8 constructors. Not listening to driver feedback is a moot point. Lack of results is.

I am sure we will see Allison booted out in near future if the results doesn't come next year even if he listened to the drivers.

Ofc it matter, if a driver cant drivew the car becuse driver says such and such, and team fail to implement changes, how is the driver every going to get the most out of the car he cant drive?

Next your going to say the Redbull wasnt designed specifically for Max even though Neway and horner keep saying differently.

[the EDGE]

Ofc it matter, if a driver cant drivew the car becuse driver says such and such, and team fail to implement changes, how is the driver every going to get the most out of the car he cant drive?

Next your going to say the Redbull wasnt designed specifically for Max even though Neway and horner keep saying differently.

That’s not true. Horner has specifically said the RB, like every other car, is simply designed to be the theoretically fastest car possible

Every team chases a target of balance across a range of speeds. It is up to the driver to adapt to get the most out of it

[Cs98]

After 8 consecutive of WCC to fire the technical team just because of drivers feedback is not good for morale of the people working at the factory.

Hope this decision doesn't back fire because James Allison is no superman he has his fair share dry spell without winning any championship

But he wasnt TD for all those titles, Most he was head aero, then moved to TD in 2017 in a joint role with Allison after Lowe left, Before then, Lowe was the leader on design, Not ME.

Do you not find it funny how after LH and GR complain that they wasnt being listened to with the car design and all of a sudden Allison is back?

Ofc its important, if they cant drive the car, then the car is no good.

Allison is more or less the same when it comes to driver feedback. Drivers know nothing about car design. The behaviors they feel can be useful when interpreted through an engineer, but a driver's own solutions are not the path to go. Eliminating bad behaviors is what they should do, but there's no reason to suggest Elliott wasn't trying to do that. As we can see below, the solution to such problems isn't necessarily what a driver imagines.

I think that drivers sometimes conflate identifying a problem with knowing what the solution is. Where it’s a massive help is the accurate description of what is difficult about extracting lap time from the car.

If they can say ‘here it is letting me down because the front axle is too weak, here it’s letting me down because the rear axle is too weak. Here, it just feels bizarre and I don’t trust it’ that’s ever so helpful because you can have a million pressure sensors on the car, loads of load cells, accelerometers up the ying yang, but ultimately, those are a little bit sort of stunted in their ability to tell you truly what the car is doing.

The driver is a much better sensor. So if a driver says ‘the car’s lacking rear downforce, bang, I’ve solved it, go to the rear downforce shop, get me some downforce’ then that’s the point where it becomes slightly less helpful.

But at that point, we just have to accept the car is lacking in a certain thing and it’s our job as Lewis rightly points out.

He doesn’t design the car, it’s our job to respond with the solutions that bring that. But I think that he could rightfully say that both he and George [Russell] had been saying a particular consistent thing about the car since the first laps of the 2022 cousin of this one and the 2023 version inherited that same behaviour and we have been slow to react, slow to fix.

He debunked this "driver solution" too.

“I had some conversations with Lewis about it. I don’t think the seating position is a big factor in the problems he feels with the car.

“It’s not like we’re talking about 20 centimetres. Lewis has driven cars where he has sat even further forward.

“What he is right about is the criticism of the car’s road holding. It is our task to eliminate this weakness – because that is lap time.

“If we change the seating position, it is for many other reasons and not because we think that alone will solve all the problems for Lewis.”

[Mosin123]

Ofc it matter, if a driver cant drivew the car becuse driver says such and such, and team fail to implement changes, how is the driver every going to get the most out of the car he cant drive?

Next your going to say the Redbull wasnt designed specifically for Max even though Neway and horner keep saying differently.

That’s not true. Horner has specifically said the RB, like every other car, is simply designed to be the theoretically fastest car possible

Every team chases a target of balance across a range of speeds. It is up to the driver to adapt to get the most out of it

" Max Verstappen is leading Red Bull from a car development point of view, says team principal Christian Horner."

After 8 consecutive of WCC to fire the technical team just because of drivers feedback is not good for morale of the people working at the factory.

Hope this decision doesn't back fire because James Allison is no superman he has his fair share dry spell without winning any championship

But he wasnt TD for all those titles, Most he was head aero, then moved to TD in 2017 in a joint role with Allison after Lowe left, Before then, Lowe was the leader on design, Not ME.

Do you not find it funny how after LH and GR complain that they wasnt being listened to with the car design and all of a sudden Allison is back?

Ofc its important, if they cant drive the car, then the car is no good.

Allison is more or less the same when it comes to driver feedback. Drivers know nothing about car design. The behaviors they feel can be useful when interpreted through an engineer, but a driver's own solutions are not the path to go. Eliminating bad behaviors is what they should do, but there's no reason to suggest Elliott wasn't trying to do that. As we can see below, the solution to such problems isn't necessarily what a driver imagines.

I think that drivers sometimes conflate identifying a problem with knowing what the solution is. Where it’s a massive help is the accurate description of what is difficult about extracting lap time from the car.

If they can say ‘here it is letting me down because the front axle is too weak, here it’s letting me down because the rear axle is too weak. Here, it just feels bizarre and I don’t trust it’ that’s ever so helpful because you can have a million pressure sensors on the car, loads of load cells, accelerometers up the ying yang, but ultimately, those are a little bit sort of stunted in their ability to tell you truly what the car is doing.

The driver is a much better sensor. So if a driver says ‘the car’s lacking rear downforce, bang, I’ve solved it, go to the rear downforce shop, get me some downforce’ then that’s the point where it becomes slightly less helpful.

But at that point, we just have to accept the car is lacking in a certain thing and it’s our job as Lewis rightly points out.

He doesn’t design the car, it’s our job to respond with the solutions that bring that. But I think that he could rightfully say that both he and George [Russell] had been saying a particular consistent thing about the car since the first laps of the 2022 cousin of this one and the 2023 version inherited that same behaviour and we have been slow to react, slow to fix.

He debunked this "driver solution" too.

“I had some conversations with Lewis about it. I don’t think the seating position is a big factor in the problems he feels with the car.

“It’s not like we’re talking about 20 centimetres. Lewis has driven cars where he has sat even further forward.

“What he is right about is the criticism of the car’s road holding. It is our task to eliminate this weakness – because that is lap time.

“If we change the seating position, it is for many other reasons and not because we think that alone will solve all the problems for Lewis.”

" "Obviously, [when] you go back to before data recorders, the only thing the race engineer had to go on really was the driver's feedback.

“So the feedback of the driver, and the feel the driver had, was all-important.

"Now, with data recorders, you could argue that you don't need that.

“But, in my view, in truth you do, because data recorders tell you what the car is doing.

"[But it's] very difficult to see why the car is doing it – that's where the driver comes in. "
So his feedback is important, and then it's trying to marry the two.

"Max's feedback... [he] won't tell you, 'I think I should stiffen the front spring' or something [like that].

“But he will tell you, in great accuracy, what the car is doing. And that, for the engineer, is incredibly important."

^^ Said Neway.

[Cs98]

Ofc it matter, if a driver cant drivew the car becuse driver says such and such, and team fail to implement changes, how is the driver every going to get the most out of the car he cant drive?

Next your going to say the Redbull wasnt designed specifically for Max even though Neway and horner keep saying differently.

That’s not true. Horner has specifically said the RB, like every other car, is simply designed to be the theoretically fastest car possible

Every team chases a target of balance across a range of speeds. It is up to the driver to adapt to get the most out of it

" Max Verstappen is leading Red Bull from a car development point of view, says team principal Christian Horner."

But he wasnt TD for all those titles, Most he was head aero, then moved to TD in 2017 in a joint role with Allison after Lowe left, Before then, Lowe was the leader on design, Not ME.

Do you not find it funny how after LH and GR complain that they wasnt being listened to with the car design and all of a sudden Allison is back?

Ofc its important, if they cant drive the car, then the car is no good.

Allison is more or less the same when it comes to driver feedback. Drivers know nothing about car design. The behaviors they feel can be useful when interpreted through an engineer, but a driver's own solutions are not the path to go. Eliminating bad behaviors is what they should do, but there's no reason to suggest Elliott wasn't trying to do that. As we can see below, the solution to such problems isn't necessarily what a driver imagines.

I think that drivers sometimes conflate identifying a problem with knowing what the solution is. Where it’s a massive help is the accurate description of what is difficult about extracting lap time from the car.

If they can say ‘here it is letting me down because the front axle is too weak, here it’s letting me down because the rear axle is too weak. Here, it just feels bizarre and I don’t trust it’ that’s ever so helpful because you can have a million pressure sensors on the car, loads of load cells, accelerometers up the ying yang, but ultimately, those are a little bit sort of stunted in their ability to tell you truly what the car is doing.

The driver is a much better sensor. So if a driver says ‘the car’s lacking rear downforce, bang, I’ve solved it, go to the rear downforce shop, get me some downforce’ then that’s the point where it becomes slightly less helpful.

But at that point, we just have to accept the car is lacking in a certain thing and it’s our job as Lewis rightly points out.

He doesn’t design the car, it’s our job to respond with the solutions that bring that. But I think that he could rightfully say that both he and George [Russell] had been saying a particular consistent thing about the car since the first laps of the 2022 cousin of this one and the 2023 version inherited that same behaviour and we have been slow to react, slow to fix.

He debunked this "driver solution" too.

“I had some conversations with Lewis about it. I don’t think the seating position is a big factor in the problems he feels with the car.

“It’s not like we’re talking about 20 centimetres. Lewis has driven cars where he has sat even further forward.

“What he is right about is the criticism of the car’s road holding. It is our task to eliminate this weakness – because that is lap time.

“If we change the seating position, it is for many other reasons and not because we think that alone will solve all the problems for Lewis.”

" "Obviously, [when] you go back to before data recorders, the only thing the race engineer had to go on really was the driver's feedback.

“So the feedback of the driver, and the feel the driver had, was all-important.

"Now, with data recorders, you could argue that you don't need that.

“But, in my view, in truth you do, because data recorders tell you what the car is doing.

"[But it's] very difficult to see why the car is doing it – that's where the driver comes in. "

No one is saying driver feedback is useless. It's useful in describing how the car behaves, it is not useful when determining the technical reasons why the car behaves that way. That's why you have engineers who understand the car's design, and how to change it to accomplish a desired outcome. But you don't need drivers saying "we need to change this and that, we need the seat further back, and the sidepod to look like that car". That kind of feedback is not useful.

"Max's feedback... [he] won't tell you, 'I think I should stiffen the front spring' or something [like that].

“But he will tell you, in great accuracy, what the car is doing. And that, for the engineer, is incredibly important."

Precisely. You say what the car is doing, but you let the engineers figure out the solutions and the underlying reason for why the car feels that way. You don't tell them "this is how it's solved", because the driver has no clue.