2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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SmallSoldier
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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CjC wrote:
31 Oct 2023, 23:43
SmallSoldier wrote:
31 Oct 2023, 22:39
On another note… Mike Elliot left Mercedes… Doubt he would be coming to McLaren (overlapping positions), but would have been interesting to get someone from RB (Marshall), Ferrari (Sanchez) and Mercedes (Elliot)… A lot of knowledge between those 3
That would have been handy.
I imagine he’ll be joining his mate at Williams though?
Haven’t read anything about where he may land… But Williams would be one of the top options given what they are trying to do… AMR maybe another one if they are still trying to keep building their technical team.

Ground Effect
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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CjC wrote:
31 Oct 2023, 23:43
SmallSoldier wrote:
31 Oct 2023, 22:39
On another note… Mike Elliot left Mercedes… Doubt he would be coming to McLaren (overlapping positions), but would have been interesting to get someone from RB (Marshall), Ferrari (Sanchez) and Mercedes (Elliot)… A lot of knowledge between those 3
That would have been handy.
I imagine he’ll be joining his mate at Williams though?
He's worked at McLaren in the past, so you never know. But highly unlikely, in my view.
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mwillems
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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I don't think this has been posted yet?

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/norr ... /10540383/
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Dafnalina
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
01 Nov 2023, 11:53
I don't think this has been posted yet?

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/norr ... /10540383/
Andrea doesn't tend to overpraise his drivers, so he must've been really impressed by Lando

This is a really good read too

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/norr ... nso-prost/

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mwillems
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Dafnalina wrote:
01 Nov 2023, 16:37
mwillems wrote:
01 Nov 2023, 11:53
I don't think this has been posted yet?

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/norr ... /10540383/
Andrea doesn't tend to overpraise his drivers, so he must've been really impressed by Lando

This is a really good read too

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/norr ... nso-prost/
It was a fantastic drive, but also credit to the team. Both driver and team extracted the maximum from drive and strategy.
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Tomsky
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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billamend wrote:
31 Oct 2023, 01:02
djos wrote:
31 Oct 2023, 00:20
I can't find it now, but I read yesterday that Lando is still unhappy with the cornering behaviour - he wants to drive a U shape, but is still forced to drive a V shape through corners.
He has been complaining about that since... ever?
"To be honest, it's a combination of factors. One is the width of the track, being such a wide circuit, the distance from the entrance to the apex is very, very big, which makes the arc of the corner extremely long. Therefore, you need to have a very good exit. When you want a good exit, you want to be able to turn the car early, which we can't do because our front end at low speed is very, very poor. And our traction is also not excellent, which is one of the worst aspects of our car. Our traction stage is worse than most of the grid,' added the British driver.
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-no ... /10538665/

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djos
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Tomsky wrote:
02 Nov 2023, 09:52
billamend wrote:
31 Oct 2023, 01:02
djos wrote:
31 Oct 2023, 00:20
I can't find it now, but I read yesterday that Lando is still unhappy with the cornering behaviour - he wants to drive a U shape, but is still forced to drive a V shape through corners.
He has been complaining about that since... ever?
"To be honest, it's a combination of factors. One is the width of the track, being such a wide circuit, the distance from the entrance to the apex is very, very big, which makes the arc of the corner extremely long. Therefore, you need to have a very good exit. When you want a good exit, you want to be able to turn the car early, which we can't do because our front end at low speed is very, very poor. And our traction is also not excellent, which is one of the worst aspects of our car. Our traction stage is worse than most of the grid,' added the British driver.
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-no ... /10538665/
It’s kinda funny, AT’s head of trackside engineering, Jonathan Eddolls, is throwing shade at the McLaren handling traits:
"The directions have been to improve the front end of the car for him, accepting the stability compromise.

"But that then impacts the tyre temperatures through the corner and throughout the lap."

This gave him greater confidence, something he lacked through the years at McLaren which eventually led to his performance deficit to Lando Norris.

"But there is no big fundamental weaknesses of the car, other than lacking a bit of [aerodynamic] load.

"The fact that it does the same thing every lap, corner to corner, it's given him the confidence to be able to throw the car into the corners and know that it's going to stick and do the same thing every time."
I do wonder if that last issue, which Lando has mentioned many times, is the reason he has made so many mistakes in qualifying?
Last edited by djos on 02 Nov 2023, 10:09, edited 2 times in total.
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mwillems
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Tomsky wrote:
02 Nov 2023, 09:52
billamend wrote:
31 Oct 2023, 01:02
djos wrote:
31 Oct 2023, 00:20
I can't find it now, but I read yesterday that Lando is still unhappy with the cornering behaviour - he wants to drive a U shape, but is still forced to drive a V shape through corners.
He has been complaining about that since... ever?
"To be honest, it's a combination of factors. One is the width of the track, being such a wide circuit, the distance from the entrance to the apex is very, very big, which makes the arc of the corner extremely long. Therefore, you need to have a very good exit. When you want a good exit, you want to be able to turn the car early, which we can't do because our front end at low speed is very, very poor. And our traction is also not excellent, which is one of the worst aspects of our car. Our traction stage is worse than most of the grid,' added the British driver.
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-no ... /10538665/
To add to what that traction phase issue is, a quote from a little further down:

"In any low-speed corner, our minimum speed was always too low, we couldn't turn the car and therefore couldn't accelerate in a straight line."

Because if you can't get the nose to behave the way you want, you will struggle through every aspect of the corner. The rear of the Mclaren is actually very good.


But what was highlighted in another interview, was that it isn't that the car is necessarily bad in Corner X or Corner Y, but that the cars issues now move around based on setup, very much linked to ride height. Which is actually a good thing because we can tailor the car (more than we realised) to tune out some of the deficit, or to actually to shift the deficit to areas where we lose less time on a given track.

Since Mexico it would appear that there is a step change in understanding of how to set up the car, and this may be what has altered Lando's perception of what can be achieved in the following races. Although that said, the cars low speed abilities took a big step forward in Singapore and the car hasn't demonstrated poor performance here anywhere since except for Austin, who's track characteristics are an outlier.

What is clear is that the nose of the car holds back the MCL60, via the front suspension and the way the car works with the tyres through cornering and braking. But given the identification of further variables that can help the car overcome these issues through setup (Even if it does just shift the problem), it also feels like the team lucked into some extremely valuable data that will help them overcome the issues next year. So as well as getting a valuable piece of setup knowledge, this could well be even more important in the battle to grant next years car the platform it needs to challenge Red Bull.
Se despite not getting upgrades, this weekend was hugely important and something to be excited about.
Last edited by mwillems on 02 Nov 2023, 10:51, edited 5 times in total.
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Tomsky
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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djos wrote:
02 Nov 2023, 10:04
Tomsky wrote:
02 Nov 2023, 09:52
billamend wrote:
31 Oct 2023, 01:02


He has been complaining about that since... ever?
"To be honest, it's a combination of factors. One is the width of the track, being such a wide circuit, the distance from the entrance to the apex is very, very big, which makes the arc of the corner extremely long. Therefore, you need to have a very good exit. When you want a good exit, you want to be able to turn the car early, which we can't do because our front end at low speed is very, very poor. And our traction is also not excellent, which is one of the worst aspects of our car. Our traction stage is worse than most of the grid,' added the British driver.
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-no ... /10538665/
It’s kinda funny, AT’s head of trackside engineering, Jonathan Eddolls, is throwing shade at the McLaren handling traits:
"The directions have been to improve the front end of the car for him, accepting the stability compromise.

"But that then impacts the tyre temperatures through the corner and throughout the lap."

This gave him greater confidence, something he lacked through the years at McLaren which eventually led to his performance deficit to Lando Norris.

"But there is no big fundamental weaknesses of the car, other than lacking a bit of [aerodynamic] load.

"The fact that it does the same thing every lap, corner to corner, it's given him the confidence to be able to throw the car into the corners and know that it's going to stick and do the same thing every time."
I do wonder if that last issue, which Lando has mentioned many times, is the reason he has made so many mistakes in qualifying?
Of course, when you're not piloting on your instincts, the likelihood of error is greatly increased.

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djos
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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My thoughts exactly.
"In downforce we trust"

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mwillems
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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djos wrote:
02 Nov 2023, 10:24
My thoughts exactly.
The references from Ricciardo here are to last years car, the car at Austin is vastly superior even if it has some of the same traits, there's no reason to believe that Ricciardo couldn't drive this car. It is also from a driver who couldn't get to grips with the car vs Lando who was able to drive around the issue, even if it wasn't optimal. Whilst there could be parallels, this to me is just another shovel of sh*t being thrown by the Red Bull camp, something they've made a habit of in their desire to build Daniel back up.
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djos
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
02 Nov 2023, 10:49
djos wrote:
02 Nov 2023, 10:24
My thoughts exactly.
The references from Ricciardo here are to last years car, the car at Austin is vastly superior even if it has some of the same traits, there's no reason to believe that Ricciardo couldn't drive this car. It is also from a driver who couldn't get to grips with the car vs Lando who was able to drive around the issue, even if it wasn't optimal. Whilst there could be parallels, this to me is just another shovel of sh*t being thrown by the Red Bull camp, something they've made a habit of in their desire to build Daniel back up.
There’s no doubt the car this year is a very different beast. However, having to drive the car in a V shape seems likely to be a side effect of the aero instability Lando has mentioned numerous times.

I don’t want to get into a Daniel discussion, i just thought it was funny that AT was throwing shade, some of which correlates with Lando’s comments.
"In downforce we trust"

Sphere3758
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Sorry if this is not the right place to ask this, but is this years McLaren characterized as a oversteery, neutral or understeery car?

Also, what do the personal setup preferences of Oscar and Lando look like, do they both tend to have a very similar setup ?

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mwillems
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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djos wrote:
02 Nov 2023, 11:01
mwillems wrote:
02 Nov 2023, 10:49
djos wrote:
02 Nov 2023, 10:24
My thoughts exactly.
The references from Ricciardo here are to last years car, the car at Austin is vastly superior even if it has some of the same traits, there's no reason to believe that Ricciardo couldn't drive this car. It is also from a driver who couldn't get to grips with the car vs Lando who was able to drive around the issue, even if it wasn't optimal. Whilst there could be parallels, this to me is just another shovel of sh*t being thrown by the Red Bull camp, something they've made a habit of in their desire to build Daniel back up.
There’s no doubt the car this year is a very different beast. However, having to drive the car in a V shape seems likely to be a side effect of the aero instability Lando has mentioned numerous times.

I don’t want to get into a Daniel discussion, i just thought it was funny that AT was throwing shade, some of which correlates with Lando’s comments.
Even with the Aero instability it is in tandem with how the car works with the tires to make a contact patch and to provide a stable platform for the Aero to work. I think the team did some work in Singapore to improve the window with which the car can deal with outwash and tire wake to help the floor stay sealed and to get optimum downforce in these corners. And the added downforce in these corners has clearly helped. Getting the floor to help the nose stay pinned down efficiently is only going to bring more time to the car.

But whilst some work can always happen to improve this aspect, you'd say the area where we are yet to get our teeth into has been mapping the cars ability in the corners when in the wind tunnel, so that suspension and Aero can properly be designed to work closely together with none of the surprises we have had this year, or at least less surprises! Because you'd have to say the inability to design and tune these aspects to work together must be a big handicap. Even without Rob Marshall getting to help with this aspect for testing, I'm super excited for what the team will produce.

I noticed in the team video that we couldn't see the platform that the car sits on in the wind tunnel, so I'm assuming it must be really cutting edge and doing something pretty rare or unusual.
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mwillems
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Sphere3758 wrote:
02 Nov 2023, 11:42
Sorry if this is not the right place to ask this, but is this years McLaren characterized as a oversteery, neutral or understeery car?

Also, what do the personal setup preferences of Oscar and Lando look like, do they both tend to have a very similar setup ?
I suppose you'd say understeery, but the answer is really that it depends on the corner profile and the setup. The rear will behave and do its job in general, but there are issues with the nose doing what we want it to do, but you'd think it is less to do with the Aero (But this can mitigate it to a degree), but the window that the Aero is given to operate in, as well as the ability for the front to mechanically maintain the optimal contact patch with the track.

As for setup, they have sometimes gone for some differences in overall load (Silverstone being a good example of this), but I'm not sure how else they differ. Someone else might be able to help out here? Typically Oscar doesn't say as much about the car yet, most likely as he is finding his feet.
Last edited by mwillems on 02 Nov 2023, 14:13, edited 2 times in total.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

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