2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[CHT]

The media is pushing a rather sh*tty narrative, as always. And given that the media in question is The Sun and DailyMail, rather than actual Motorsports outlets, there's even less reason to take these two and their "calls" seriously.

If going from 1st to 3th to 2nd in the WCC out of 10 teams, is worthy of being fired over, then every top team would crumble, because their team principles would be fired left and right. Alpine, a midfield team, recently fired Otmar, and that wasn't exactly taken very well. And I'm pretty sure Red Bull wouldn't be as succesful as they are now, if they had fired Horner after 2014/2015.

This is plain and simply incompetent journalism at its worst, and using false tropes like "Formula One history suggests the boss must be first in and last out" isn't lending them any credibility either. I'm pretty sure Horner and Newey isn't the first in and last out, and I'm pretty sure Toto wasn't either when Mercedes were winning. Simply shaking things up for the sake of shaking things up isn't the way forward.

Toto's future as team principal for Mercedes now lies in the hands of Daimler and INEOS. I have reason to believe that INEOS must have paid a significant amount when they bought a 33% stake in Merc F1 during the peak, and Toto may have felt pressured to deliver the result for their other shareholders, ie. from 8 consecutive WCC to zero victories.
Toto's position right now may be very similar to Ron Dennis back in 2009, who was pressured to step down. If Toto cannot turn the team around I reckon he may have to take a back seat.

Ron Dennis did not have 33% of the team in his pocket. He could be pushed out as any other manager.
To push out Toto, Merc and INEOS need to be 100% sure and 100% aligned. I can imagine that INEOS takes this shunt. But Merc? Never...it would need a clear position from Ola against Toto and Ola would never weaken his own position with such a controversy step. He is always indefinite in these things.

So the only way I can picture Toto leaving is him just calling it a day and stepping back. But given the point that he even had a direct connection to the pit stand from the hospital...I do not see him being motivated to step back. He had the good and easy chance to take a 4 week break in a season where it does not matter, to test Allison on his position and did not take it. That is telling.

Ron Dennis was once the sole owner of Mclaren before TAG and Daimler bought into the company and Ron's stake in Mclaren goes beyond just F1, he was also the shareholder of the MTG including road car division.

Like LH, Toto has achieved 8 WCC with the team and there is really nothing much to prove, which is also the reason why I suspect that Toto may be looking at selling this stake in Merc F1 and needs the team to deliver results to bump up the value of the company.

By 2024 if Toto cant turn things around I suspect the team may have to look for a new team principal to chart the next chapter for the team, including possible new driver line up for 2026

[mendis]

Toto's future as team principal for Mercedes now lies in the hands of Daimler and INEOS. I have reason to believe that INEOS must have paid a significant amount when they bought a 33% stake in Merc F1 during the peak, and Toto may have felt pressured to deliver the result for their other shareholders, ie. from 8 consecutive WCC to zero victories.
Toto's position right now may be very similar to Ron Dennis back in 2009, who was pressured to step down. If Toto cannot turn the team around I reckon he may have to take a back seat.

Ron Dennis did not have 33% of the team in his pocket. He could be pushed out as any other manager.
To push out Toto, Merc and INEOS need to be 100% sure and 100% aligned. I can imagine that INEOS takes this shunt. But Merc? Never...it would need a clear position from Ola against Toto and Ola would never weaken his own position with such a controversy step. He is always indefinite in these things.

So the only way I can picture Toto leaving is him just calling it a day and stepping back. But given the point that he even had a direct connection to the pit stand from the hospital...I do not see him being motivated to step back. He had the good and easy chance to take a 4 week break in a season where it does not matter, to test Allison on his position and did not take it. That is telling.

Ron Dennis was once the sole owner of Mclaren before TAG and Daimler bought into the company and Ron's stake in Mclaren goes beyond just F1, he was also the shareholder of the MTG including road car division.

Like LH, Toto has achieved 8 WCC with the team and there is really nothing much to prove, which is also the reason why I suspect that Toto may be looking at selling this stake in Merc F1 and needs the team to deliver results to bump up the value of the company.

By 2024 if Toto cant turn things around I suspect the team may have to look for a new team principal to chart the next chapter for the team, including possible new driver line up for 2026

The reason I feel Toto can't turn this around is because, unlike the other ultra successful team bosses like Ron Dennis, Frank Williams, Ross Brawn and Christian Horner, Toto never built a team from ground up to make it successful. He got it on platter from Ross Brawn and rode the success wave until it lasted. Now he is in an unknown territory with great deal of expectations. With so much attrition and also budget constrained, it's going to be the biggest test of his racing management career.

[AR3-GP]

2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[hollus]

A whole page is gone.
Read the thread title, please!

More green, no blue. Thanks.

[the EDGE]

The reason I feel Toto can't turn this around is because, unlike the other ultra successful team bosses like Ron Dennis, Frank Williams, Ross Brawn and Christian Horner, Toto never built a team from ground up to make it successful. He got it on platter from Ross Brawn and rode the success wave until it lasted. Now he is in an unknown territory with great deal of expectations. With so much attrition and also budget constrained, it's going to be the biggest test of his racing management career.

Did you watch F1 in 2009?

Brawn GP may have won the title but they were far from a top team. They exploited a loophole, and still only just won the titles. Others were closing in fast at the end of the season

In the following years after Toto and the Mercedes consortium purchased the team they only managed to be the 4th/5th best team, and were a long way behind the top 3

Toto convinced A LOT of top people to join the project and It took them 5 years and a major rule change for them to be successful again, achieved under Toto’s leadership. So I disagree with you

[denyall]

The reason I feel Toto can't turn this around is because, unlike the other ultra successful team bosses like Ron Dennis, Frank Williams, Ross Brawn and Christian Horner, Toto never built a team from ground up to make it successful. He got it on platter from Ross Brawn and rode the success wave until it lasted. Now he is in an unknown territory with great deal of expectations. With so much attrition and also budget constrained, it's going to be the biggest test of his racing management career.

Did you watch F1 in 2009?

Brawn GP may have won the title but they were far from a top team. They exploited a loophole, and still only just won the titles. Others were closing in fast at the end of the season

In the following years after Toto and the Mercedes consortium purchased the team they only managed to be the 4th/5th best team, and were a long way behind the top 3

Toto convinced A LOT of top people to join the project and It took them 5 years and a major rule change for them to be successful again, achieved under Toto’s leadership. So I disagree with you

Shhh, your going against the narrative!

Toto = Bad

[mendis]

The reason I feel Toto can't turn this around is because, unlike the other ultra successful team bosses like Ron Dennis, Frank Williams, Ross Brawn and Christian Horner, Toto never built a team from ground up to make it successful. He got it on platter from Ross Brawn and rode the success wave until it lasted. Now he is in an unknown territory with great deal of expectations. With so much attrition and also budget constrained, it's going to be the biggest test of his racing management career.

Did you watch F1 in 2009?

Brawn GP may have won the title but they were far from a top team. They exploited a loophole, and still only just won the titles. Others were closing in fast at the end of the season

In the following years after Toto and the Mercedes consortium purchased the team they only managed to be the 4th/5th best team, and were a long way behind the top 3

Toto convinced A LOT of top people to join the project and It took them 5 years and a major rule change for them to be successful again, achieved under Toto’s leadership. So I disagree with you

Let me lay down the timeline of Mercedes and Toto here. While BrawnGP was on his way to the title in 2009, Norbert Haug, then Mercedes racing Boss convinced Daimler to purchase BrawnGP to become a Factory team. It was a very small investment compared to what they were paying at the time to McLaren to be the title partner. At the end of 2009, Daimler bought BrawnGP in full.

Ross Brawn was pushing for FIA to implement RRA (Resource Restriction Agreement) aka Budget Cap, but none of the top teams were willing to agree. This was important for Mercedes to run it profitability inline with what they expected, successful but cheap.

In 2nd season as factory team, Brawn then helplessly put forward proposal to increased funding with Daimler. He also aggressively pushed for rule changes, alongside Ferrari. By this time, 2014 engine rules were solidified. Daimler agreed for increasing investment on both engine and racing team. Mercedes HPP had engines running on Dyno by 2012. Brawn started hiring every possible known technical individual from the market. The likes of Bob Bell, Geoff Willis, Mike Elliott and Aldo Costa were recruited while they already had John Owens as chief designer. Brawn also fired Loic Bigoic who was the then head of aerodynamics as part of the shuffle. He then signed Lewis to replace Schumacher.

All of this was done before Toto joined Mercedes for 2013. In 2013, W04 came which was the best Mercedes car until then, getting poles and winning races.

So no, Toto has no hand in building this team. It was ripe to rule when Toto entered.

[the EDGE]

The reason I feel Toto can't turn this around is because, unlike the other ultra successful team bosses like Ron Dennis, Frank Williams, Ross Brawn and Christian Horner, Toto never built a team from ground up to make it successful. He got it on platter from Ross Brawn and rode the success wave until it lasted. Now he is in an unknown territory with great deal of expectations. With so much attrition and also budget constrained, it's going to be the biggest test of his racing management career.

Did you watch F1 in 2009?

Brawn GP may have won the title but they were far from a top team. They exploited a loophole, and still only just won the titles. Others were closing in fast at the end of the season

In the following years after Toto and the Mercedes consortium purchased the team they only managed to be the 4th/5th best team, and were a long way behind the top 3

Toto convinced A LOT of top people to join the project and It took them 5 years and a major rule change for them to be successful again, achieved under Toto’s leadership. So I disagree with you

Let me lay down the timeline of Mercedes and Toto here. While BrawnGP was on his way to the title in 2009, Norbert Haug, then Mercedes racing Boss convinced Daimler to purchase BrawnGP to become a Factory team. It was a very small investment compared to what they were paying at the time to McLaren to be the title partner. At the end of 2009, Daimler bought BrawnGP in full.

Ross Brawn was pushing for FIA to implement RRA (Resource Restriction Agreement) aka Budget Cap, but none of the top teams were willing to agree. This was important for Mercedes to run it profitability inline with what they expected, successful but cheap.

In 2nd season as factory team, Brawn then helplessly put forward proposal to increased funding with Daimler. He also aggressively pushed for rule changes, alongside Ferrari. By this time, 2014 engine rules were solidified. Daimler agreed for increasing investment on both engine and racing team. Mercedes HPP had engines running on Dyno by 2012. Brawn started hiring every possible known technical individual from the market. The likes of Bob Bell, Geoff Willis, Mike Elliott and Aldo Costa were recruited while they already had John Owens as chief designer. Brawn also fired Loic Bigoic who was the then head of aerodynamics as part of the shuffle. He then signed Lewis to replace Schumacher.

All of this was done before Toto joined Mercedes for 2013. In 2013, W04 came which was the best Mercedes car until then, getting poles and winning races.

So no, Toto has no hand in building this team. It was ripe to rule when Toto entered.

Oh… my bad I honestly thought he was with Merc from the start

[trinidefender]

Looking for some opinions on this continued narrative about Toto. From what I can see he doesn’t seem the be same leader that he was when winning. Maybe the atmosphere in the team and factory might be different I don’t know but public facing he seems to have lost the whole “no blame culture.” It’s easy to manage a team that is winning but much harder in the position that Mercedes is in now. So for those who follow the Mercedes saga closer than I do, do you think he really is motivating his workforce in the correct way?

[CHT]

Looking for some opinions on this continued narrative about Toto. From what I can see he doesn’t seem the be same leader that he was when winning. Maybe the atmosphere in the team and factory might be different I don’t know but public facing he seems to have lost the whole “no blame culture.” It’s easy to manage a team that is winning but much harder in the position that Mercedes is in now. So for those who follow the Mercedes saga closer than I do, do you think he really is motivating his workforce in the correct way?

Too premature to judge since he was hardly given a chance to prove himself when Merc was always winning.
As for blame culture, to a certain extent I would agree. Back in March, LH proudly said “I don’t think we’ve ever been a team that copied other people,”

Just a few months ago, LH seem to suggest, I told you so. Perhaps the me myself and I culture is what trigger Mike Elliott to quit.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-ham ... y-red-bull

[billamend]

From what I can see he doesn’t seem the be same leader that he was when winning.

It’s so much easier to be a leader of a winning organization. I’m not saying easy, just easier. And Toto inheriting that winning org, didn’t have to do the journey from loosing to winning.

[Luscion]

Looking for some opinions on this continued narrative about Toto. From what I can see he doesn’t seem the be same leader that he was when winning. Maybe the atmosphere in the team and factory might be different I don’t know but public facing he seems to have lost the whole “no blame culture.” It’s easy to manage a team that is winning but much harder in the position that Mercedes is in now. So for those who follow the Mercedes saga closer than I do, do you think he really is motivating his workforce in the correct way?

Merc hasnt lost the no blame culture, a no blame culture doesn't equal free from consequences when it comes to incompetence. Not sure what you specifically mean but gonna touch on some of the stuff i've seen people talk about. That report of the people being fired for the wrong scale model in the windtunnel was a major screw up, something very avoidable and cost the team an entire year with development going down the wrong path yet again, costing them a chance at the title, pushing their development progress further back and not to mention the millions lost in this concept and the amount of R&D wasted, We also dont know if Elliot was fired or simply felt out of place with the new regs as he was the one who made the call for Allison to replace him and then they both went to Toto about it. Toto, Lewis and George also made it very clear after Elliot left that he was not responsible for the two failed concepts and for where Merc are now. The mood at the factory has definitely changed as they went from challenging for the titles for almost a decade to struggling to win races. Toto and Lewis calling the car terrible isnt going to hurt anyone at the factory's feelings, they know its bad, it cant win races and its riddled with issues, its why they're strapping the entire concept.

[Bill_Kar]

What's this nonsense about INEOS leaving through the back door because of a Man Utd stake buy?

[AR3-GP]

I haven't seen that anywhere yet.

[RonMexico]

It seems like things are beginning to fracture behind the scenes, reminiscent of Ferrari in 2010 leading into 2011. A great driver saddled with ultimately limited machinery, makes for a tough atmosphere eventually. Hopefully the W15 is competitive