Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

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OnEcRiTiCaL
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Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

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KimiRai wrote:
13 Dec 2023, 05:04
What about the gearbox? Will Mercedes narrow its bulky design? Customer teams would benefit from that too...
I would be really interested also to know anything about the gearbox. Is know that mercedes have "big" gearbox compared to Ferrari or Redbull. Ferrari made it smaller for 2024,so definitely can improve a lot on floor and diffuser by that.

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organic
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Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

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This discusses mercedes aiming to narrow its gearbox like RB has

https://formu1a.uno/f1-2024-quelle-evol ... -red-bull/

OnEcRiTiCaL
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Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

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I know is old,but still somehow telling us where they have to improve or make changes at 24.
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/mark ... 24-f1-car/

KimiRai
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Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

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organic wrote:
13 Dec 2023, 13:24
This discusses mercedes aiming to narrow its gearbox like RB has

https://formu1a.uno/f1-2024-quelle-evol ... -red-bull/
That answers my question, thanks. Exceptional timing haha

CHT
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Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

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just curious, what is the benefit or reason Merc chose to run a bulky gearbox?

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F1Krof
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Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

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CHT wrote:
16 Dec 2023, 11:11
just curious, what is the benefit or reason Merc chose to run a bulky gearbox?
Cheaper and easier to manufacture. Plus more reliable.
Wroom wroom

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Goblin42
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Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

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CHT wrote:
16 Dec 2023, 11:11
just curious, what is the benefit or reason Merc chose to run a bulky gearbox?
it's abit easier to manufacture and abit more reliable then a skinny design that pushes the cassette higher, (redbull had problems with gearshifting all season and max even DNF'd from saudiGP quali cuz of it),in mercedes's case it also related to having the rear suspension being a pull rod with the attachment points on the underside of the gearbox making that entire area bulkier, even earlier in the 2023 season Aston stated that they were held back by Merc suspension/gearbox design and couldn't go all the way to the RB concept, as u can see in the picture between the RB18 & AMR23

imo if Merc wants to go full RB concept they should change that entire rear end including suspension and gearbox which is a huge task
if they did, i'm hopefull they're gonna be competitive
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organic
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Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

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Goblin42 wrote:
16 Dec 2023, 16:07
CHT wrote:
16 Dec 2023, 11:11
just curious, what is the benefit or reason Merc chose to run a bulky gearbox?
it's abit easier to manufacture and abit more reliable then a skinny design that pushes the cassette higher, (redbull had problems with gearshifting all season and max even DNF'd from saudiGP quali cuz of it),
Think the Saudi quali issue was driveshaft rather than gearbox related

But RB did have major gearbox reliability concerns in '23. The gearbox used at Bahrain GP was most likely lost and Max ended up taking an extra gearbox @ spa. Not sure many others if any needed an extra gearbox.

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Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

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RB debuted this narrow gearbox design in 2021 as one of their tokens. In that season, Ver had near perfect reliability (although spared the mileage of 2 races). I suspect the origin of any later issues was related to weight reduction of internals as their car was known to be overweight in the '22 season.
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Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

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F1Krof
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Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

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Is this a hint of the new gearbox chasis or is it the old one?
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Wroom wroom

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Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

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“If you take last year’s car, we were very hampered at the beginning by horrible porpoising,” says Allison. “We hadn’t imagined that would be a problem and it was caused by having too much downforce too near the ground in a way that produced an aerodynamic instability that was very difficult to understand and took us a while to get rid of it.

“Over the course of that first year, we developed a car that had plenty of downforce near the ground that we turned out not be able to use because of the porpoising we didn’t see coming, but the downforce would drop away quite quickly when you raised the car.

"Later in the year, we fixed the porpoising with some changes to the floor geometry, but were left with a car which didn’t have as much downforce near the ground as it used to have. And still the downforce dropped away quite steeply when you went higher."

"Although that was OK at tracks like Barcelona, it was utterly hopeless at other places where you needed to have the rear ride height higher. So you could be OK at Barcelona and then lousy at Monaco the next week.

"The rest of that season was [about] expanding the range of downforce, finding more downforce at higher rear ride heights.”

Venturiation
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Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

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Good point about concepts
“Whether by good fortune or enormous skill, the cars that are the quick ones are the ones that have conceptual strength,” says Allison. “The execution of that concept will be more or less elegantly done depending on the quality of your drawing office staff. What makes the thing work or not work is what you value, what will bring me laptime.

“Everyone says downforce will bring me laptime? OK, where? Do you want downforce at 80mm or do you want downforce at 30mm off the ground?

"Do you want the car to be good in crosswinds? Well, OK, but is that one-degree crosswind, 15-degree crosswind? How much importance are you going to give to 15 degrees versus five, versus zero?

"These are all conceptual choices. Not 'concept' as in sidepod concept, much deeper conceptual choices about what you choose to place value upon. Once you set out your stall for what you place value on – the 'where is the treasure buried?' analogy – your factory, the efficiency of you factory will dig that out of the ground for you, but only if you are looking in the right places.”

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Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

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Venturiation wrote:
22 Dec 2023, 14:13
Allison characterises the increase in the floor-edge height by 15mm as coming “quite late in the day”, but acknowledges it meant the cars would bounce less. The question was, how to respond to that?
“There was a big debate internally,” says Allison. “Should we cash in that 15mm and drop the car down, operate the car in a window that is 15mm smaller, because the cars will be less bouncy inherently? Or should we do more of what has done us well over the course of the year, which was force ourselves to keep looking for downforce where it’s difficult high up?

“These rules don’t reward you [with downforce] high up, it’s really hard to find, but that brought us some benefits over the course of last year. So the debate raged internally for a while. The logic was it’s very hard to predict because the tools are not especially good for this, anyone’s tools, not just ours. They are not very good for predicting exactly where bouncing is going to be incurred.

“It’s much harder to back yourself out of having driven off the edge of a cliff and finding yourself bouncing than it is to be too high, not bouncing and then lower yourself towards it. So the outcome of our internal debate was let’s err on the cautious side, let’s keep trying to find downforce where it’s hard and if it turns out we’ve been too cautious we will spend the months that follow working quickly to recover that.
“And if we’re lucky and others cash in the 15mm – and without tools that prove to them everything will be fine, I remain of the view it was a gamble - then they’ll all bounce and we'll be the smart ones for having taken the cautious approach. So that was the route.
To me this paragraph captures the problem at Mercedes that has not allowed them to excel under the regulations change like they had in the past. Attempting to be "too smart" for their own good and perhaps lacking some humility.
The logic was it’s very hard to predict because the tools are not especially good for this, anyone’s tools, not just ours.
Clearly that's not true about Red Bull, and perhaps not Mclaren either.

“And if we’re lucky and others cash in the 15mm – and without tools that prove to them everything will be fine, I remain of the view it was a gamble - then they’ll all bounce and we'll be the smart ones for having taken the cautious approach. So that was the route.
You can see it here again. "we'll be the smart ones".

When Perez crashed his cars in Monaco, Allison was on record saying he was "not that impressed" by Red Bull's floor. We also know that the team couldn't be bothered to listen to Hamilton's input. It seems like they are suffering from arrogance, and it comes from the very top as well (both Elliot and Allison).
A lion must kill its prey.

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chrisc90
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Re: Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

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Of course they were impressed by RB’s floor - everyone on the grid and everywhere else was impressed by their floor. To say they weren’t is naive. I’d have been highly impressed if they had seen it prior to Perez’s car being lifted given RB keep their floors well covered up when not on the car.
I imagine it was quite the opposite- they were given a massive eye opener to how RB do their business under the skirt compared to what Mercedes can offer.

From a read of that interview - it seemed they took a while to understand that the lower the floor - the more DF you get. The comments of the 15mm increase on floor height and sacrifices here and there to what others might have done I can’t weigh up. Should we lower it or shall we not. The merc seemed to work well in COTA when they could slam the car (to point the plank failed post race checks) but other times it didn’t. Yet others were working just fine noticeably higher than anyone else.
Seems they are admitting their models - even at this stage in the era of regulations are struggling. (And apparently everyone else’s - however they know that)
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.