Mercedes W15 Speculation Thread

[BassVirolla]

According to this sidepods change won't bring much performance for 2024? why not stick with zeropods then


“The laptime that came with the Monaco update was not remotely from the things that were visually different, apart from the wishbones,” says Allison. “The change to the sidepod fronts were [a case of] ‘let’s just not have that as a thing to worry about for the future’.

“Actually, the decision to go to that new sidepod front probably took about two tenths of a second off the update package we put on the car. From a pretty torrid 14 months, we took that off the table as a variable, but actually that particular change on that particular day was slower than what preceded it.

"The things which brought performance were all underneath the car, and rear brake drums and ducts, front wing. Subsequently, you work with what you’ve got then and just iterate from that point. This car long ago left that 0.2s deficit behind it and away we go.

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/jame ... de-on-w14/

As you, I don't understand why would them retain until the end of the season a design known for being 0,2s handicapped.

It does not sense at all. I start to feel like MB are guided more from pride and stubborness than reality. And / or they are really lost, and they'll never admit it.

[AR3-GP]

According to this sidepods change won't bring much performance for 2024? why not stick with zeropods then

oh Venturiation...I suspect you know the answer to that already...

[Vaexa]

You'd almost start to think you're not really supposed to blindly believe members of F1 teams. Not even James Allison.

[maygun]

According to this sidepods change won't bring much performance for 2024? why not stick with zeropods then


“The laptime that came with the Monaco update was not remotely from the things that were visually different, apart from the wishbones,” says Allison. “The change to the sidepod fronts were [a case of] ‘let’s just not have that as a thing to worry about for the future’.

“Actually, the decision to go to that new sidepod front probably took about two tenths of a second off the update package we put on the car. From a pretty torrid 14 months, we took that off the table as a variable, but actually that particular change on that particular day was slower than what preceded it.

"The things which brought performance were all underneath the car, and rear brake drums and ducts, front wing. Subsequently, you work with what you’ve got then and just iterate from that point. This car long ago left that 0.2s deficit behind it and away we go.

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/jame ... de-on-w14/

As you, I don't understand why would them retain until the end of the season a design known for being 0,2s handicapped.

It does not sense at all. I start to feel like MB are guided more from pride and stubborness than reality. And / or they are really lost, and they'll never admit it.

If they decided that they would use a conventional sidepod design in the next season, probably they left it to collect data and make design choices based on that data/learnings. IMO, most of the upgrades after the Monaco were for the experiments and learning. For instance, in spa they upgraded the sidepods but didnt gain that much time. Or in Austin they upgrade the floor, but not for the performance but for the next year's direction.

[zeroday]

They spent 2 full development cycles in full belief they were right and averybody was wrong.

tbf, Hamilton was the only one who called out the rest of the MER team for being wrong quite early on, but the team didnt listen to him. Because historically Hamilton tends to usually be proven right on and off the track it was a big eye opener when that nugget was revealed considering how prior years, before the regulation change, MER always listened to Hamilton through his absolute domination over our sport. As conciliation, MER finally acknowledged their errors and now back to listening to him.

[zeroday]

As you, I don't understand why would them retain until the end of the season a design known for being 0,2s handicapped.

It does not sense at all. I start to feel like MB are guided more from pride and stubborness than reality. And / or they are really lost, and they'll never admit it.

If it were me, i'd change out the design if my goal is to learn as much as possible this year for a totally new concept come next year. 0.2s be damned, especially, if it's a forgone conclusion that i will not be anywhere near winning the WCC nor WDC for this year.

I get a sense the W14 became a frankenstein car with ideas for W15 or concepts to prove their understanding before tackling W15 with what they learned. If they kept the other design to retain 0.2s they wouldn't be able to do such tests as accurately due to not being fully sure if it was exaggerating data, especially if this old concept was going to be binned next year. Better to bin it right away and try to mould somewhat of a respectable challenger you plan to have for W15. Learning begins right away on it.

If they lose 0.2s now, it doesnt mean they cant regain it in the new concept next year via what they learned through sacrifice in the prior year.

[BassVirolla]

As you, I don't understand why would them retain until the end of the season a design known for being 0,2s handicapped.

It does not sense at all. I start to feel like MB are guided more from pride and stubborness than reality. And / or they are really lost, and they'll never admit it.

If it were me, i'd change out the design if my goal is to learn as much as possible this year for a totally new concept come next year. 0.2s be damned, especially, if it's a forgone conclusion that i will not be anywhere near winning the WCC nor WDC for this year.

I get a sense the W14 became a frankenstein car with ideas for W15 or concepts to prove their understanding before tackling W15 with what they learned. If they kept the other design to retain 0.2s they wouldn't be able to do such tests as accurately due to not being fully sure if it was exaggerating data, especially if this old concept was going to be binned next year. Better to bin it right away and try to mould somewhat of a respectable challenger you plan to have for W15. Learning begins right away on it.

If they lose 0.2s now, it doesnt mean they cant regain it in the new concept next year via what they learned through sacrifice in the prior year.

That makes some sense.

[marcel171281]

I'm getting so tired of the term zero-pods.

There were never any zero-pods, they just moved the fat bits to different places than the others:

[Gabriox]

Toto had mentioned that with the w13, they went too low with the ride height. After lobbying for the 15mm raise in floor edge. He stated that they were too cautious with the w14 ride height and ran it too high. I hope they get it right with the w15 because there will be no excuses this time. I believe that in Texas and Brazil they were experimenting with the ride height. As far as the suspension goes, I won't be suprise if mercedes keep the push rod - pull rod and change other mechanical aspects of it.

[CMSMJ1]

Can we look forwards a little please?

Too much gnashing of teeth and rending of goat's hair shirts in this one.

The last 2 cars were not as good as Merc wanted. So, Speculation on the new one...look ahead to the future, stop bitching about the past




(to note - the reports and complaints in what should be a positive and sensible (maybe even with some technical thrown in) thread are far higher than they ought to be, Signal/noise is not good.)

[Henk_v]

What signal are you hoping to find in a speculation thread?

Or are you trying to differentiate between extrapolations, rumours and educated guesses?

[McMika98]

Toto had mentioned that with the w13, they went too low with the ride height. After lobbying for the 15mm raise in floor edge. He stated that they were too cautious with the w14 ride height and ran it too high. I hope they get it right with the w15 because there will be no excuses this time. I believe that in Texas and Brazil they were experimenting with the ride height. As far as the suspension goes, I won't be suprise if mercedes keep the push rod - pull rod and change other mechanical aspects of it.

Well there in lies the problem along with this statement from Toto in the recent podcast post Abu Dhabi:

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cH ... HQAAAAAQFA

Two cars that had very little bouncing straight away were Redbull and McLaren, guess what suspension they are using. From the outset Newey who was aware of ground effect issues designed a car with the best solution to have a stable platform throughout and this is what is now in the top 2 cars. If Merc are going to stick to same push pull config then it will be another zero pod deja vu. They will most likely pull Aston and Williams down if they stick to the same philosophy with the rear.

[Luscion]

Toto had mentioned that with the w13, they went too low with the ride height. After lobbying for the 15mm raise in floor edge. He stated that they were too cautious with the w14 ride height and ran it too high. I hope they get it right with the w15 because there will be no excuses this time. I believe that in Texas and Brazil they were experimenting with the ride height. As far as the suspension goes, I won't be suprise if mercedes keep the push rod - pull rod and change other mechanical aspects of it.

Well there in lies the problem along with this statement from Toto in the recent podcast post Abu Dhabi:

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cH ... HQAAAAAQFA

Two cars that had very little bouncing straight away were Redbull and McLaren, guess what suspension they are using. From the outset Newey who was aware of ground effect issues designed a car with the best solution to have a stable platform throughout and this is what is now in the top 2 cars. If Merc are going to stick to same push pull config then it will be another zero pod deja vu. They will most likely pull Aston and Williams down if they stick to the same philosophy with the rear.

I'm hopeful they dont stick with push pull as Elliot before he left said the W15 would have a bespoke suspension to that of the W14 and Toto has said they are changing both the rear and the front suspension of the W15

[Stu]

What signal are you hoping to find in a speculation thread?

Or are you trying to differentiate between extrapolations, rumours and educated guesses?

Nothing like that, there has been way too much W13-W14 talk.

[Venturiation]

What signal are you hoping to find in a speculation thread?

Or are you trying to differentiate between extrapolations, rumours and educated guesses?

Nothing like that, there has been way too much W13-W14 talk.

That's natural because it's talking about mistakes or weaknesses for the old car and what lead them to makes those choices and how they will impact the W15
All the learning for the W15 comes from W13 amd W14 so it's normal talking about them